Defining God

[A.W. Bowman]

Recently I came across a question that gave me pause to think. How can one love that which is unknowable? In this case, we are commanded by God to, “… love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” De 6:5, JPS, while at the same time we are informed that God is unknowable and unapproachable. That we are unable to comprehend who or what God truly is, or to understand even His ways.

The Old Testament is full of descriptions of God and explanations (examples) of His nature, while also informing us that God is nothing like what He has revealed to us in His word. That is, God is above and beyond what we can conceive or imagine. All the while, we are expected to both know and to love God – which implies an intimate relationship. How can one establish and maintain such a relationship with someone you can only “know about”, but never actually come to “know” face to face?

This question, of necessity, drives us into a more fundamental dilemma, i.e. how can we describe (even talk about) God intelligently, without committing heresy? Heresy, in this case, being defined by Rabbi Yanki Tauber as “The placement of God within the scale of our reality, the attribution to Him of qualities that are part of our vision of our world and ourselves.”

We are all guilty of making absolute statements about subjects we know next to nothing about. Many times we are willing to die for our convictions - or even to kill others over theirs, as Christians were doing to each other up to only a few hundred years ago.

I therefore place before this assembly the following question:

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

Okay kids - lets give it a shot. BTW, answeres like , "You can't", or "It is impossible", are not acceptable.

[Beard]

to be made conformable to his death through our taking up our cross and following him, that we may know him and the power of the resurrection...the meek shall see God. the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are for the work of the ministry, until we all come into the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man, unto the knowledge of the Son of God. Many say that they know God, yet there is a process whereby we are to grow up into him, the manchild, the perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. God came down to us that we might come up into him. We know him no more after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Can we know God? Yes, because he made the way for us to see his glory and to be where he is...the same glory that was given to him in the days of his flesh is the same glory that he has given to the church as his body....various steps in that God foreknew us, then predestined, then called, then justified, then ultimately glorified...being conformed to his image unto full maturity....

in the throne room revelation of Jesus in Revelation 4, there is a jasper which is the last stone on the breastplate of judgment having Naphtali (my wrestling) being written on it which speaks of Jesus' wrestling on the cross of Calvary ; then the sardine (sardius) having Judah written upon it being "praise"...thus revealing throughout eternity the cross which brings the all praise to Jesus; then the rainbow, an arch of light, which contains 7 basic colors which has within it every color in their various infinite hues....Each various hue has its own particular wavelength just like the voice of speech that has it own particular wavelengths, each color by spectrum analysis...as the beasts before the throne see these various colors that utter speech, they cry "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty"...then it mentions time...being "which was, which is, and which is to come"...From each color which speaks of Jesus' glory as God Almighty passes from the scarlet to various infinite shades of red then proceeds to orange and its various infinite hues, to the yellow, to the green, to the blue, indigo and purple...etc., with each new spiritual insight gives another attribute and majesty in knowing Him...which will take an entire eternity to begin to know Him and His Majesty...We know him now...and we shall grow in the knowledge of Him throughout eternity....

just some thoughts...

[Cindy]

He is my Father, I don't need to define Him.

[Sam]

I believe that God is an invisible spirit who fills all space. He is separate from His creation. This is called His transcendence.

I also believe that the one true God is immanent, or close to His creation and interacts with it.

God is an invisible spirit who throughout the Old Testament has revealed Himself to humankind as the angel (messenger) of JHVH. This messenger was both the One who sent and the One who was sent. He was God above all and separate from humanity and at the same time was God among us humans. He was the invisible God who became visible. He was the hidden God who was revealed or made manifest. As the distant God come near, or as the hidden God revealed, He was called the Word, or the Logos, or the Memra, or the glory of the Messiah, or Ha Kavod.

He appeared many times in the Old Testament and interacted with humankind. He appeared to Abram. He wrestled with Jacob. He appeared to Moses in a burning bush. He appeared to many in Israel as sitting on a throne or as a pillar of fire or pillar of cloud. He appeared to Isaiah as God above the temple, filling the temple. He appeared as a fourth man in a furnace. Etc. Etc. These were temporary manifestations or revelations of God. This was God revealed. That temporary revelation, that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

After establishing the deity and the humanity of the Logos/Word/Memra/Ha Kavod, in verses 1 through 17 of the Gospel named after him, the apostle John went on in verse 18 of that first chapter and said, "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]." Amplified Bible

In the first chapter of First John, the Apostle described this Word/Logos/Memra/Ha Kavod as
the one who was from the beginning,
the one they heard with their ears,
the one they saw with their eyes,
the one they observed over a period of time,
the one their hands had handled.
the Word.

In other words, when Jesus took on humanity, He was the One true God of the Old Testament, the invisible God who had made Himself visible over the years and who had appeared to and interacted with humankind. He was God the sender and God the sent one.

The doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to understand and explain God. It was developed over the years. It was an attempt to explain the God of the Hebrews in Latin and Greek terms and now later on into English terms. No wonder we've got it so convoluted and difficult.

In the Old Testament, God was
1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.
2 the Word --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind
3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

n the New Testament, God is
1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all, the One who caused a virgin to conceive and give birth to a son.
2 the Word, the Son --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind
3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, Spirit of Christ, Christ in us, Jesus living in our hearts) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

Some may call this Oneness and some may call this Trinity.
Is this Oneness or Trinity?
The answer is "yes."

[mizpeh]

There are things which God has made known to us about Himself, which are found in His word and in the things which He has created.

De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

By studying His word under the illumination that the Spirit, our teacher, gives us.

[A.W. Bowman]

Beard, cneasttx, and mizpeh – thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights. You three share a degree of spiritual maturity worthy of cultivation.

Jim, as usual, you demonstrate a perceptive grasp of spiritual issues. Thank you. Now, can I prevail upon you to take this line of reasoning to the next level, after a few others have had the opportunity to discover and discuss the true nature of the original question?

To all: perhaps a clue to delving into issues such as this one, is that one must set aside some of the things we think we know (personal doctrine and/or church dogma) and delve into the word of God for our selves: not to “prove a point” or “justify a point of view”, but to discover something of the deeper things of God. Questions that should be asked first are: What is really being asked by the question? What are the different parts of the question and how do they relate? Is there something missing – or is there too much information given and/or required?

Excellent start brethren! BTW, I don’t have the definitive answer either! Still working on it. LOLOL

[Michael The Disciple]

The Old Testament is full of descriptions of God and explanations (examples) of His nature, while also informing us that God is nothing like what He has revealed to us in His word.

I have been reading the Old Testament for 34 years. I cant recall seeing a scripture that says God is nothing like what he has revealed in his word. Im glad I dont see God like that.

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

We dont do that. Its already been done for us in the book called the Bible. We can only believe what is written. It is in unbelief of scripture that God becomes unknowable.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Recently I came across a question that gave me pause to think. How can one love that which is unknowable? In this case, we are commanded by God to, “… love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” De 6:5, JPS, while at the same time we are informed that God is unknowable and unapproachable. That we are unable to comprehend who or what God truly is, or to understand even His ways.

The Old Testament is full of descriptions of God and explanations (examples) of His nature, while also informing us that God is nothing like what He has revealed to us in His word. That is, God is above and beyond what we can conceive or imagine. All the while, we are expected to both know and to love God – which implies an intimate relationship. How can one establish and maintain such a relationship with someone you can only “know about”, but never actually come to “know” face to face?

This question, of necessity, drives us into a more fundamental dilemma, i.e. how can we describe (even talk about) God intelligently, without committing heresy? Heresy, in this case, being defined by Rabbi Yanki Tauber as “The placement of God within the scale of our reality, the attribution to Him of qualities that are part of our vision of our world and ourselves.”

We are all guilty of making absolute statements about subjects we know next to nothing about. Many times we are willing to die for our convictions - or even to kill others over theirs, as Christians were doing to each other up to only a few hundred years ago.

I therefore place before this assembly the following question:

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

Okay kids - lets give it a shot. BTW, answeres like , "You can't", or "It is impossible", are not acceptable.

The question is somehow implying that God is unable to be known to us. Therefore it all comes down to faith.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

The question is somehow implying that God is unable to be known to us. Therefore it all comes down to faith.

Excellent. We "know" a great deal about God in terms of our own self knowledge and perception of creation. Even so, God knows each one of us intimately, but we still lack an intimate knowledge of our creator. This lack of intimacy creates a number of relational issues for humans - and makes discussing God and His nature rather difficult.

Faith (our hope, trust and confidence) in the revealed creator is the starting point in establishing a viable relationship with Him - and in this process, we can begin to discover more about the very nature of God, the who and what He truly is - that transcends our ability to comprehend Him without the use of anthropomorphic symbols.

So, cneasttx has brought us to the point of acknowledging two things concerning our discussing God: (1) We must know something about Him and (2) We must have (a measure of) faith in Him.

What then would be a good next step in being able to define (discuss) God? Or, what are some of the things that hinder such discussions?

[bkstokes]

I think Dr. Larry Crab has written a descent book "Finding God" that addresses a lot of these questions. I will post some info from his book later.