Homeschooling Parents

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe they do term this as the "Dot-notation" approach. From my understanding it is effective for intellectually disabled people, but will slow down your normal student. I believe I agree with this.

I did see several articles referencing the benefits for disabled students. I think it'll slow down students who don't need it, I probably wouldn't want to see it taught in a classroom setting, but I definitely see benefits in a tutoring situation, or like Rico is doing, if it fits the student's needs.

I would be interested to find out if anyone has ever worked out at least some of the why this method seems beneficial for mentally disabled students. I'd also be curious to know if there's any data on highly gifted kids and this method. If I remember when I have time I may do some digging and see what I can find.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

As I have stated, Math is a science that does not change. Rote memorization is the most time tested route to go. It doesn't change much from that.

But, rote memorization lets you down after awhile. You have to understand the concepts, and how to get the answer, not just remember what the answer is. You can look at 2 times 3 and know it's 6, but why is it 6? I use pies and plates sometimes, if you have 2 plates, and both plates have 3 pieces of pie on them, that's 6 pieces total. If you don't understand this concept, later on when you have to factor, you'll be completely sunk. I do think a lot of people manage to pick that information up somewhere along the line, but some just completely miss it. They manage to give the correct answer so they must understand the concepts needed to get the answer, and that's not always true.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, learning styles are different. That is why I suggested games, which includes flash cards and workbooks/seatwork. Those are the two most effective methods.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm sorry that I have offended you. It was not my purpose. I have seen people struggle so much choosing from the various choices on the market. I was trying to simplify the process.

This is true, there are so many things out there it's daunting to select which will be most beneficial.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I hope you can forgive me for being aggressive on this subject. I'll try to do better.

I can, and me too. lol

[Rico]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I did see several articles referencing the benefits for disabled students. I think it'll slow down students who don't need it, I probably wouldn't want to see it taught in a classroom setting, but I definitely see benefits in a tutoring situation, or like Rico is doing, if it fits the student's needs.

I would be interested to find out if anyone has ever worked out at least some of the why this method seems beneficial for mentally disabled students. I'd also be curious to know if there's any data on highly gifted kids and this method. If I remember when I have time I may do some digging and see what I can find.



But, rote memorization lets you down after awhile. You have to understand the concepts, and how to get the answer, not just remember what the answer is. You can look at 2 times 3 and know it's 6, but why is it 6? I use pies and plates sometimes, if you have 2 plates, and both plates have 3 pieces of pie on them, that's 6 pieces total. If you don't understand this concept, later on when you have to factor, you'll be completely sunk. I do think a lot of people manage to pick that information up somewhere along the line, but some just completely miss it. They manage to give the correct answer so they must understand the concepts needed to get the answer, and that's not always true.





This is true, there are so many things out there it's daunting to select which will be most beneficial.



I can, and me too. lol

If I tried that she'd have about 3 seconds to figure out the answer before one of them pieces of pie would disappear (we'd be working on subtraction then). Within around 5 minutes I'd be teaching her the concept of nuthin from nuthin leaves nuthin!

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Rico

If I tried that she'd have about 3 seconds to figure out the answer before one of them pieces of pie would disappear (we'd be working on subtraction then). Within around 5 minutes I'd be teaching her the concept of nuthin from nuthin leaves nuthin!

I didn't say *real* plates with pie. Lego work well for actual manipulatives. I've used M&Ms before too. That did become more of a division problem than multiplication. lol

[Rico]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I didn't say *real* plates with pie. Lego work well for actual manipulatives. I've used M&Ms before too. That did become more of a division problem than multiplication. lol

Sister, you have no idea how hard I was laughing when I thought about eating them pieces of pie! I needed a good laugh too! This day has been draining. I do feel better about this whole thing after today.


I appreciate all you Sisters for offering your advice. It means a lot to me. Really, it does. You all have been such a big help.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I did see several articles referencing the benefits for disabled students. I think it'll slow down students who don't need it, I probably wouldn't want to see it taught in a classroom setting, but I definitely see benefits in a tutoring situation, or like Rico is doing, if it fits the student's needs.

I would be interested to find out if anyone has ever worked out at least some of the why this method seems beneficial for mentally disabled students. I'd also be curious to know if there's any data on highly gifted kids and this method. If I remember when I have time I may do some digging and see what I can find.

I'm sure you'll find something. Lots of interesting info. I just don't have the time to wade through it all right now.

But, rote memorization lets you down after awhile. You have to understand the concepts, and how to get the answer, not just remember what the answer is. You can look at 2 times 3 and know it's 6, but why is it 6? I use pies and plates sometimes, if you have 2 plates, and both plates have 3 pieces of pie on them, that's 6 pieces total. If you don't understand this concept, later on when you have to factor, you'll be completely sunk. I do think a lot of people manage to pick that information up somewhere along the line, but some just completely miss it. They manage to give the correct answer so they must understand the concepts needed to get the answer, and that's not always true.

I don't see how rote memorization can let you down after a while. Once that is learned it's there, forever.

I believe the use of manipulatives is something introduced in the earlier stages of Kindergarten and well into 1st grade, at least. That is where the basic knowledge of "concept" is supposed to be introduced. If not, someone has made a mistake.

We counted everything - eggs, toothpicks, pennies, pebbles, marbles, matches, corn, beans - and YES - LEGOS!!!

I have a huge storage bin full of Legos! The toy of choice! I'm saving them for if I ever have grandchildren. lol

I use to purchase Legos after Christmas when they were half price. You know the castles that are over $50? The pirate ship? I love all of those. The western towns. We even used to get their magazine in the mail and order from Lego directly. LOL!

This is true, there are so many things out there it's daunting to select which will be most beneficial.

Yes! I was so overwhelmed in the beginning!

I can, and me too. lol

Wonderful! How did I do this time? lol

[Pressing-On]

This site is very informative and interesting.


Homeschooling Visual-Spatial and Creative Learners

http://www.homeschooldiner.com/speci...tial/main.html

Fun Ways to Use Math

http://www.homeschooldiner.com/subje...ment_math.html

[Pressing-On]

Rico,
This looks great!

Click-O-Matic" Guide to Choosing a Homeschool Approach


The Homeschool Diner's
"Click-O-Matic" Guide to
Choosing a Homeschool Approach

Overwhelmed by all the choices in homeschooling approaches
and curriculum? As a homeschooling parent you have the freedom to
choose the best educational approach for each of your children. Whether
you choose to follow a public school scope and sequence or try out an
alternative approach; whether you choose to buy a curriculum or pull
together your own resources, it's entirely up to you. It is a big decision!

Try out the Homeschool Diner's "Click-O-Matic Guide to Choosing a
Homeschool Approach! It's a quiz --- and an annotated guide --
designed to help you think about what kind of approach you and your
student really need...

This Click-O-Matic approach to looking at curriculum may help you find
just what you've been looking for! If you see descriptions that match your
student -- take a look at the approaches recommended for that
characteristic, and then "Click" on the ones you'd like to read more about.
If you see a topic that applies to you, as the homeschooling parent -- take
a look at the recommendations, and then "Click" on the ones you want to
explore.... Dont' wait! Act now! Just "Click" on the topics below to begin!


http://www.homeschooldiner.com/quiz/...omeschool.html

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm sure you'll find something. Lots of interesting info. I just don't have the time to wade through it all right now.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't see how rote memorization can let you down after a while. Once that is learned it's there, forever.

Because math isn't about memorizing, it's about calculating and finding possible solutions. It really does depend how far you're going to go with it, I tutor students totally differently based on their majors.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe the use of manipulatives is something introduced in the earlier stages of Kindergarten and well into 1st grade, at least. That is where the basic knowledge of "concept" is supposed to be introduced. If not, someone has made a mistake.

Or the student figured out how to give the right answer without understanding the concept. Or, any number of things can go wrong. It's not usually too big of a deal, except that the longer a student goes without understanding it, the harder it is for them to believe they can understand it.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We counted everything - eggs, toothpicks, pennies, pebbles, marbles, matches, corn, beans - and YES - LEGOS!!!

I have a huge storage bin full of Legos! The toy of choice! I'm saving them for if I ever have grandchildren. lol

I use to purchase Legos after Christmas when they were half price. You know the castles that are over $50? The pirate ship? I love all of those. The western towns. We even used to get their magazine in the mail and order from Lego directly. LOL!

I've never had the money to buy much lego, but we sure do have quite a collection. lol It's one of the few things I'm making sure gets to Texas with us.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Wonderful! How did I do this time? lol

I don't know for sure. You'll have to keep trying and I'll let you know later.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

Ditto.




Because math isn't about memorizing, it's about calculating and finding possible solutions. It really does depend how far you're going to go with it, I tutor students totally differently based on their majors.

I guess I'm thinking from a homeschool perspective. We are actually tutoring and know if a child is getting something or not.

But aren't there things that are important for memorization like multiplication? I can't imagine not struggling if I didn't know the tables by heart.

How do you tutor based on their major and how do you assess them?

Or the student figured out how to give the right answer without understanding the concept. Or, any number of things can go wrong. It's not usually too big of a deal, except that the longer a student goes without understanding it, the harder it is for them to believe they can understand it.

I could see that happening.

I've never had the money to buy much lego, but we sure do have quite a collection. lol It's one of the few things I'm making sure gets to Texas with us.

I always bought the kits on sale. January is the best time.

I don't know for sure. You'll have to keep trying and I'll let you know later.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I guess I'm thinking from a homeschool perspective. We are actually tutoring and know if a child is getting something or not.

Teaching and tutoring are a little different, IMO. I'm pretty familiar with homeschooling (I was homeschooled, as were my siblings, as was my ex, and his siblings, and most of my friends homeschool their kids, and I homeschooled mine up until this year). It depends on your approach which you end up doing, IMO teaching is more the introducing of new concepts and explaining them the standard way (or the way explained in the textbook used). Tutoring is working with those concepts until they make sense. This, is strictly an "in my own head" sort of distinction, not something I've seen anywhere and it's also subject to change at any moment.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But aren't there things that are important for memorization like multiplication? I can't imagine not struggling if I didn't know the tables by heart.

I have never memorized the multiplication tables. I calculate very quickly in my head. If I can't remember 8 times 9 (and I never, ever can..lol) I know that 4 times 9 is 36, 36 plus 36 is 72. Or, I use a calculator. lol I'm in college, no one knows! There are some multiplication problems I can remember, but not all of them. The ones I can remember, I usually visualize as something totally different, using memory tricks I guess. Honestly, how I think is extremely difficult to explain. lol Sometimes I think my head is broken.

I really haven't studied too much into elementary school memorization, but I do think it would probably be pretty possible to succeed in college math without ever memorizing the things they expect you to in elementary school. I was one of the students who *really* slipped through the cracks and I really picked up very, very little in elementary school math.

Most of my students struggle with elementary school concepts, 3rd grade especially (I had 2 kids in 3rd this year, I always found it amusing when I was helping with homework on the same concepts I just tutored earlier..lol). This makes me think a lot more students miss things than really get noticed until they *do* get to college and try to meet the math requirements for a degree. It also makes me think that memorizing them is *not* important. I don't have my students memorize (usually, there are some exceptions) but show them why it works, if you can see why you can *always* find the answer, vs memorizing and only seeing the answers to what you have memorized. My brain seems to shut off at the end of the semester and I'm having trouble coming up with one of those glaring examples I know I have.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

How do you tutor based on their major and how do you assess them?

If all they need to do is pass pre-credit algebra, I use a lot more memorization (this is my exception) for concepts they absolutely can not grasp. It's a cheat though, it will do them no favors if they choose to go into a math heavy major later on. There are some things that in pre-credit algebra are *always* and therefore you can memorize them, but if you go into college algebra, or pre-calculus or beyond, they are NOT always and memorizing them that way would be painful later on. (imaginary numbers mess with "always", so do radicals, so does trig, but it adds about a zillion new ones..lol...trig is DEFINITELY my exception to memorization, but even in trig you only need to know enough to pass the test, once you do that the concept is far, far more important than memorizing the trig functions..you get books to look those up in when you need to use them).

If they're going into a math heavy major, I absolutely never use those cheats. I will spend hours and hours explaining the same thing in every different way possible, and researching new ways to explain it, but I'll never say "you only need to know this much to pass this class and go on".

Multiplication is actually one thing I think is taught horribly wrong in elementary school. I tutor *college* algebra, and I spend way too much time explaining the pieces of pie on plates concept. It's extremely difficult to factor if you can't see the pieces. (I do tutor a lot of visual learners, it seems we struggle with math quite a lot...lol). Even my non-visual learners do well with this explanation though. Positive/negative sign is another one, you can *memorize* how it works, but my students always mess it up (and this is one thing you can almost always trip a math professor up on too...negative signs are miserable things). I teach my very own "invisible 1" theory. lol My students rarely make another mistake once they grasp what I'm trying to say, and it's saved more tests for me than I care to think about.

Slope is a big one that's explained differently depending on the major, you really don't need to understand that x and y mean something if you're not going into engineering or math. If you are, you'd better understand how they relate to what you're solving for (engineering especially..if you don't understand how x, y, and z coordinates relate to trig and what it means, you will have big problems) I also break the pieces down much, much smaller for math heavy majors. I tutored an engineering student this last semester and we spent a lot of time going over WHY things work. Memorizing was failing him miserably, you can't apply concepts if you just memorize the solutions. If you can't apply concepts, your bridge is not going to work right. If your bridge doesn't work right, you're going to have some unhappy people.

I assess based on questions I ask, what I see them struggling with, what I know their major is, their goals (barely pass, or an A), and my own intuition. I also base my decisions about how much to push the concepts on how the student is doing emotionally. Math anxiety is painfully real and if they're near tears and ready to throw things at the wall (or me? lol) I decide the concept isn't that important and give the shortcuts. Sometimes we touch on it later and it makes sense, sometimes it's just one of those concepts we decide to forfeit for that course.