Biblical guide for a "church service"

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Paul NEVER addressed specifically what happened before that time and forbid it...

Now brother that is weak...... why would Paul cause more division? He simply did what he had to do... brought correction to an immature church.. and laid the principles upon which NT church services should be like.....

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

That's not what Paul said. Paul warned them not to forbid speaking in tongues. The point was that there was to be order "in the church". A time of personal prayer, praise, and worship prior to teaching where people are free to pray in tongues us perfectly fine. But eventually they were to remain quiet and allow the prophets to speak and teach. No more than three elders were to do this at a time and they each had to respect each other and wait in turn if another spoke. As they dialogued with the church body Paul didn't want anyone interrupting in tongues without an interpretation.

Tell me...if Paul commanded that tongues only be used with an interpreter and they were to be limited to three...how many are speaking in tongues and prophesying here...and where's the interpreter????

Acts 19:1-7
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7And all the men were about twelve.

Wow...Paul must have forgotten his own instructions! LOLOLOL

this was exactly what i was thinking about...this was actually the main scripture that made the lightbulb go on in my head when i was searching for more truth/praying for direction. i felt as if this passage was talking specifically to me back then. i also argued the no tongues without an interpreter thing until i read this passage. here's something else that i realized...the main people that preach there has to be an interpreter at all times are the very ones who have NO tongues being spoken at all. paul also said "i thank God that i speak with tongues more than anyone".

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Now brother that is weak...... why would Paul cause more division? He simply did what he had to do... brought correction to an immature church.. and laid the principles upon which NT church services should be like.....

You did not refute my statement. You just said that was weak and asked a logical fallacy of a complex question. Do you still beat your wife?

He brought correction...nobody said he did not sir. Once again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I agree he brought correction. But that does not prove YOUR assertion that he CHANGED anything that was done prior to the NT church. What he did was correct their abuse of the spiritual gifts.

[SavedLou]

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Actually how would you know if there is no interpretation before speaking in a tongue? It says actually if there is no interpretor...a person with that gift. So of course you would have to know there is no interpretor...

Second Paul did not say don't speak in tongues in that case. He said to speak it to yourself.

We can quibble over the difference between tongues Paul speaks of and the tongues in Acts....which as far as we can see was NOT a church meeting and an interpretation for church edification but was someone receiving the Spirit for the first time

BUMP BUMP BUMP

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?

Please!

Paul also instructed that we greet our brethren with a holy kiss.

Do you greet all your brethren with a kiss? If not, you're also found in rebellion!

Originally Posted by SavedLou

this was exactly what i was thinking about...this was actually the main scripture that made the lightbulb go on in my head when i was searching for more truth/praying for direction. i felt as if this passage was talking specifically to me back then. i also argued the no tongues without an interpreter thing until i read this passage. here's something else that i realized...the main people that preach there has to be an interpreter at all times are the very ones who have NO tongues being spoken at all. paul also said "i thank God that i speak with tongues more than anyone".

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos.....

Let me ask you this.. Lets say you had just founded a church

The people are all excited... there's lots of emotions,,, and people are actually going out and witnessing and embarassing the church by forcing themselves on people.... and you let it go for now because they are babies

but then you realize it is time for them to mature some.. so you bring order.....

Now, is everything they done before you brought order... the guide you want them to go by.. or the ones most recently set?

Same logic applies here.. Peter was an Evangelist... this was not a "called gathering of the local church" and then much later Paul comes in to bring ORDER to Gods church...

So, what should our guide be? This Pre-Pauline event... in the infancy of the church... or the last instructions we have from our Apostle?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.

Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You did not refute my statement. You just said that was weak and asked a logical fallacy of a complex question. Do you still beat your wife?

He brought correction...nobody said he did not sir. Once again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I agree he brought correction. But that does not prove YOUR assertion that he CHANGED anything that was done prior to the NT church. What he did was correct their abuse of the spiritual gifts.

Sir,, are you exclaiming that he should have said "now listen, the way Peter was doing it was immature.. it was wrong.. let me correct you" how silly.. he would never have done that.. but he did in his own way show a more perfect way that our services should attain unto

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

Praxaeus, you can play on words all you wish.. of course we are all the church.... but when you go to church this Sunday... are you not at the GATHERING of the SAINTS? That is the CHURCH I am referring to.

In the NT we see many instances of them gathering on the first day of the week for their weekly instructions in the WORD.. we see nothing more than the teaching of Gods Word.. the doctrines......

again in perfect order.. he game the five fold minsitry not for the HYPING of the SAINTS or the REACHING of the SINNER but for one purpose "the perfecting of the saints"

I'll never know why we use the local sanctuary as the place to reach sinners.. that is sooo backwards... the local church in the NT was NEVER USED for the evangelization of sinners.. but rather the maturing and training of the saints.. so the saints my go out and "do the work of the ministry" which is the spreading of the gospel