Pre-Service Prayer in Apostolic Churches?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I don't believe in "mandatory" pre-service prayer. We serve God out of a willing heart. When "things" are made to be "madatory", whether it be prayer or giving... it comes a ritual void of power. I do believe we should enter a worship service prayerfully but to "mandate" a time of prayer is a vain attempt to force spirituality. Prayer, like everything else we give to God, should be offered out of willingness and a desire to please God. We serve God because we love Him, not because we are "required" to serve Him.

As I stated in an earlier post, the LORD in the OT mandated that the high priest do very specific things BEFORE he was ready to hear God's word in the Holy of Holies where he entered once a year; I wonder why that was?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by BHILL

What does your Pastor do if your a saint who can't make it early for prayer? Ground you? I don't remember anything in the NT church about prayer before church.It would be hard to attend a church where the pastor keeps track of which saints come early to pray and which ones don't.

If you can't make it and/or have a good excuse, then you have a good excuse. But if not, then why not?

Is there anything in the NT that teaches how to conduct a church service? What should be done and in what order? Does the OT contain a type/shadow/figure/pattern of what the High Priest had to do before entering into the presence of God and being ready to hear the words of God?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Really, who are you?

You appear to be in rebellion yourself; rebellion against those with whom you may disagree. This is a disturbing trend and I suggest you get in line before it's too late!

Frankly, I have trouble with "rules" when it comes to things of the Spirit. I seek God in a fashion that satisfies my Spirit and enables me to be a conduit to encourage others (apart from my theraputic grousing on AFF!).

Do you have "rules" that state people are supposed to "worship?" Rules for raising of hands and rules for how the hands are to be raised? I've actually run into folks that will rebuke newcomers for not turning their palms in the correct direction.

I attended a church that had a stolen traffic sign directing people which way to run - a "One Way" sign. This may have been a good "rule" because things did get a bit congested in that corner. But some folks there really enjoyed making up other rules as well. And when they got tired of all the rules, then they just threw their hands up in the air and said "Anything goes..."

It gets a bit wearisome riding other people's emotional roller coaster up and and down. How about just encouraging people to pray? How about just making a comfortable and well ventilated room available and setting a good example by being open and inviting?

Most people who tend to come to a church are seeking something in the way of the supernatural and most of them are inclined to seek that through prayer. Why do you need a "rule" to tell people to do what they showed up to do in the first place?

Is there anything in the NT that teaches how to conduct a church service? What should be done and in what order? Does the OT contain a type/shadow/figure/pattern of what the High Priest had to do before entering into the presence of God and being ready to hear the words of God?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

In the OT, the high priest could only enter the holy of holies once a year, but had to follow certain steps before doing so such as (may get some of these wrong or in the wrong order or may forget some)...

- sacrificing at the brazen altar (type of repentance and/or crucifying the flesh)
- washing at the brazen laver (type of baptism)
- burning incense at the golden candlestick before the veil (type of offering up praise - i.e., worship)

The point was that he HAD to do these things BEFORE he was ready to enter into the presence of God and HEAR from God's word.

The High Priest in the Old Testament was a forerunner of Christ - not of ourselves. Christ entered ONCE into the Holy Place (Hebrews 9:22-28). That the priest had to prepare himself indicates that Christ too lived a life which prepared Him (a sinless life). The pattern and activity of the High Priest is not one that we are intended to follow.

Though we are intended to follow Christ, there is an important difference between Christ Himself and His followers. The angry old ladies who scurry about gossiping and slandering the saints that fail to measure up to their standard of appearances by making a demostration in the prayer room are certainly not the paragons of virtue that they imagine themselves to be.

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Sometimes apostolics ask, why do we do the things in a church service that we do? Is it just tradition or is there a bible example?

Pre-service prayer is like crucifying the flesh and getting the flesh under subjection. My personal experience is that when I go to pre-service prayer, I find it easier in the service. During worship my flesh does not feel so heavy and worship is easier and I also get more out of the preaching of the word of God. Also the word of God teaches us that no flesh shall glory in his presence. The flesh and Spirit war against each other, but by prayer we give the Spirit the upper hand.

Worship is like offering up the incense which was another step that had to be done BEFORE being ready to hear the word of God.

We are priests now in the NT.

The "holy sacrifices" that we as "lively stones" and "a spiritual house," and "an holy priesthood..." are seen offered up not only in our regular church services, but throughout the life of a dedicated believer.

To try and say that there is some sort of biblical mandate for "mandatory pre-service prayer" is to add to the Bible itself and would probably make all of one's prayers of no effect due to the sin of presumption (1 Peter 2:10-22).

And yes - if you were to make a list of the things that happen in a typical Pentecostal church service and compared it to the Bible, you will find that most of the things that happen are indeed "traditions" as opposed to Biblical practices in and of themselves. Now, this doesn't make the "traditions" wrong, but we should be clear and not reach to try and stretch the Bible over ourselves like a fat jogger does with his lycra.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

We must learn the flow of the spirit and how to follow the flow...(Does that make sense?)

Well as I posted on another page, I believe the OT pattern of what the High Priest did before entering into the presence of God and being ready to hear God's word, shows what we should do in the NT church.

I wonder why God just didn't tell the High Priest to just come into the Holiest of holies whenever he wanted to and just make sure he have sacrificed an animal or 2 for your sins and the sins of the people? Why bother with the washing at the brazen laver and burning incense before the veil? Why all the steps and in a specific order and only once a year?

I mean God changes not - his essential character does not change - so what was the big deal in the OT?

I believe as Moses was shown to doing everything after the pattern in the heavenlies, it was all a shadow of the real thing in heaven and what was to come in the NT.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Is there anything in the NT that teaches how to conduct a church service? What should be done and in what order? Does the OT contain a type/shadow/figure/pattern of what the High Priest had to do before entering into the presence of God and being ready to hear the words of God?

You made reference to the Day of Atonement service. With the exception of Zacharias in the New Testament, I can think of no case where "the words of God" were heard in that context.

The purpose of Yom Kippur was to present the blood in the Holy Place, not to "hear the words of God."

And you are correct - there is really scant instruction for "how to run a church service" in the Bible. Particularly if we are to include musical instruments and all of the apparatus of the modern age. That's why the "traditions" we have are not all wrong. But we should be clear about what is traditional and what is Biblical.

... gotta step away for a bit - BRB.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

We must learn the flow of the spirit and how to follow the flow...(Does that make sense?)

I do agree thou, that when the service starts, we go with God's Spirit.

What I mean by that is that there has been times in my church where in worship the Spirit moves in such a mighty way, that people just end up coming to the altar, and people just worship, and we let God have His own way. If God is doing something in Spirit during worship, then why should we only give Him a certain amount of time, and then interrupt him, and start the preaching of the word?

There have been times also, when after worship, preaching, and the altar call that God has moved in a mighty way and the Pastor will just put up a sign saying that if you want to go you can be dismissed; but when God is moving like that, most don't dismiss themselves.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That's a constant problem that I've run into. To be honest, it really makes it hard to pray when you've got someone going around scolding people for not being as "spiritual" as they are.

So does that mean when the Pastor says its time to pray or worship or whatever that we just kinda sit back and say to ourselves - do I feel like doing that right now?

I wonder why the bible tells us to obey those that have the rule over us?

Are there rulers in God's kingdom? The bible says so...

Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.

God's kingdom needs leaders who lead and obedient, submissive saints who follow. I wonder how a shepherd dealt with sheep who didn't want to obey him? Perhaps that is why a shepherd has a rod and a staff.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by LadyChocolate

I agree with you! I haven't read all the posts so I might repeat someone here... BUT, I believe there should be prayer before every service. Calling on God, praying for the lost, hurting, bound, depressed and so on is detrimental. It's God's anointing that will break the chains that have people bound and the saints of God need to see that need. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (Ja 5 16) Without the saints of God praying for the needs that will be in that service, then people just might not get what they need from God.

Saints also need to sensitive to God by not talking to others and not letting their children run around and play... IMO, you can go outside or in the foyer and talk. Sometimes I think when we've been in church for a while, we forget our desperation, our hunger for God.

And this is another reason I like prayer rooms. As where I think we should be reverent in the sanctuary, visitors may not understand the excitement of prayer and it might make them feel uncomfy...... As where if your church is able to go to prayer rooms, one can pray how they like to pray and the visitor will still feel the incredible, wonderful spirit of God!

A hearty-amen!

Paul asked that prayer be made for him that he would be given utterance. Usually in church, the Pastor is going to preach.

There are so many needs that could be prayed for in a pre-service prayers such as...

- God would draw lost visitors to the service
- God would help the song leader , worshippers, and muscicians would be annointed and would lead in the worship with clean hearts, spirits, etc
- That the people of God would worship God in Spirit and in Truth
- That God would give the Pastor the message that needs to be preached, and that God would annoint him, for it is the annointing that breaks the yoke, that he would be given utterance, etc
- That God would lead sinners to repentance, etc
- That God would fill someone with the Holy Ghost

The list just goes on and on!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

Mandatory pre-service prayer?

I would think that most Apostolic churches have their prayer rooms open and folks are encouraged to pray before service, but mandatory?

The only thing mandatory about it, is if you may be seeking affirmation from the pastor.

Or could there be another purpose that you are not aware of?