The dangers of not having a Pastor in your Life...

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by keith4him

A couple of things, first I am a Pastor so I have a bias towards Pastors.

Last night I taught a lesson on God giving you what you need in a package you don't want or like.

Partly in reference to the Election, the scriptures speaks volumes regarding submitting, honoring and obey authority figures, even when their authority manifests itself unjustly. I Peter 2 refers to this.

Now if God calls us to submit, pray, honor worldly human institutions, I think the requirement is more significant in the house of God.

A few things about leadership/elders.

In the NT setting Elders (spiritually mature, seasoned, leader) lead or ruled the local assembly, some of these elders were Pastors, some prophets, some teachers etc.

So in essence we all need elders. In their role as Elder they might fulfill as Pastor's role, Evangelist or Prophet, etc.

Their importance is that when Jesus delegated his authority to his disciples he told them on more than one occasion that if one receives them, then he is being received and if one rejects them then he is being rejected. Of course the authority is derived from speaking words of God.

So as I speak the words of God in my local assembly, I represent Jesus and the authority of God word's to them, if they reject that then according to scripture they reject the authority of Jesus in that assembly.

And accordingly if they receive my words (based on the text, legitimate authority) then they are receiving from Jesus as if he was standing there himself.

The power of binding and loosing is a reference to this as well, of course the key word in that often misused passage is whatever has been loosed in heaven then can be loosed on the earth, Elders if it has not been loosed in heaven, you have no such authority on the earth. This guards against mis-use of authority.

But even illegitimate/false ministers can be the vehicle by which the Lord moves, the passage in Matthew 7 about those that work wonders, miracles, cast out demons, and yet Jesus never knew them is a tremendous warning of being right with God regardless of ministerial results, success or gifting.
Though it is worth pointing out that even with that being said, people did get delivered from Demons, miracles happened and wonders were received by believers. God ultimately judged and held those false workers accountable.

There are many other reasons, but in short we do need Elders, Pastors, leadership, because they do speak in the place of Jesus in a delegated role.

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

Leadership is one of the pieces of God's role and voice in your life, they aren't the only one. But to cut them off because of your issues and history is the equavalent to cutting out your hands because you stubbed your finger.

Leadership is part of the body and have a signifcant role to play, without it you will not come to the realization of your full and mature stature in Christ.

The answer to abuse and illegitimate uses of authority is proper use and legitimate ues. Find a healthy, Biblical based church and commit to it.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

And neither should we! It is ERROR (false-doctrine, heresy) to insinuate that pastors are put in our lives to "hear from God for us." They do NOT speak for Jesus to us. Jesus speaks DIRECTLY to us through His Word and His Spirit. The notion that the upper class "ministry" is somehow in a more direct channel with God that the lower class "laity" is unscriptural. You'd have to bend and murder a lot of scripture to find that in the Bible.

This abominable doctrine asserts that "pastors" are those who sit in "Moses' seat," with Moses as the giver of the law (the first covenant). In the church, it is actually JESUS who sits in "Moses' seat" as the giver of the law (the NEW covenant, the law of the Spirit). For a pastor to say he sits in Moses' seat, he is actually dethroning Jesus and usurping His power.

The church DOES need pastors. YOU need a pastor. You just need to be careful who you choose as your pastor. The sins of some don't negate the value of others who are aligned with the Word and Spirit of God.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

I guess this is a big reason why I am reluctant to belong to any kind of assembly. I don't necessarily want someone to speak in the place of Jesus in my life.

I don't say that with scorn or arrogance or anything. It's simply that I fought for so long to have faith of my own, to follow as I believe God is leading me, that I don't believe that I could give up that independence.

I think the problem is a part of the solution....

I used to serve men (Pastor) and struggle with God concerning them....

I now serve God and don't worry about the Man of God he placed in my life, I'm not discouraged or worried because I trust that God is doing what's right in my life.... and for me to say this is a big thing...but I trust it's more maturity than anything else...

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by jaamez

And neither should we! It is ERROR (false-doctrine, heresy) to insinuate that pastors are put in our lives to "hear from God for us." They do NOT speak for Jesus to us. Jesus speaks DIRECTLY to us through His Word and His Spirit. The notion that the upper class "ministry" is somehow in a more direct channel with God that the lower class "laity" is unscriptural. You'd have to bend and murder a lot of scripture to find that in the Bible.

This abominable doctrine asserts that "pastors" are those who sit in "Moses' seat," with Moses as the giver of the law (the first covenant). In the church, it is actually JESUS who sits in "Moses' seat" as the giver of the law (the NEW covenant, the law of the Spirit). For a pastor to say he sits in Moses' seat, he is actually dethroning Jesus and usurping His power.

The church DOES need pastors. YOU need a pastor. You just need to be careful who you choose as your pastor. The sins of some don't negate the value of others who are aligned with the Word and Spirit of God.

And that same Jesus uses his body to manifest himself on the earth and a vital and significant part of that body is leadership gifts, they are all the body and don't play the only role, but to diminish their role it to try and exist with parts of your own body missing. Good luck in trying to function in life with members misssing.

[Tyk]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

I think you misunderstand how people feel on here . Most people love, or would love and great servant of christ to labor for, and with, and to them. Wise, full of the fruits of the spirit, a loving guide to help them.

*disclaimer (you'll like this) - Your feelings could be drawn from a defensive attitude from most posters here. Many were taught, and or experienced an overlord type Pastor theology. - And they fear/reject that being pushed on them .

A great pastor is like a jewel with wings, as a bad pastor is like lodestone around your neck =(

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Leadership is one of the pieces of God's role and voice in your life, they aren't the only one. But to cut them off because of your issues and history is the equavalent to cutting out your hands because you stubbed your finger.

Leadership is part of the body and have a signifcant role to play, without it you will not come to the realization of your full and mature stature in Christ.

The answer to abuse and illegitimate uses of authority is proper use and legitimate ues. Find a healthy, Biblical based church and commit to it.

Deep Breath......repeat x10

Ok, to be perfectly honest, my first reaction when I am told what to do is to get defensive and overreact. It's one of my triggers, getting better, but still there.

The reason that I am not involved in a church or "under authority", in actuality has little to do with my past, at least not in the way you might think. As much as I am able I have laid to rest the wounds of my past. I have learned what I can from them, and have made the decision to move on. (I say decision because often the journey is two steps forward, 1 step back).

I feel like I have learned some very important lessons from my experiences, and more than anything I don't want to make the same mistakes. I was naive, but well-intentioned. I believed that anything God spoke to (or asked of) anyone, he also asked of me. I believed what I was taught, I did what I was told, and I was miserable.

The truth is that when it came down to it, I was seriously lacking in faith. I didn't have the faith that the Spirit of God was strong enough to keep me, or willing to speak to me, nor the faith that i was smart enough, or spiritual enough, or good enough to hear Him.

Eventually, I decided to rest my tattered and bleeding spirt away from those to whom I had given control. The process of deconstructing and rebuilding is brutal. I wanted to give up many many times, but I didn't. I feel like I made it through the worst of the darkness, and once again see light and hope.

Though it has been a struggle, I feel like I am finally reaping from my work. My faith is finally my own. My relationship with God is only between the two of us.

There are few on this forum who would believe me (and I will spare you the story), but God spoke to me and told me that the only way that I would find him was to leave the Apostolic church. (as a disclaimer he DIDNOT tell me that he couldn't be found in the apostolic church, or that is was evil or bad or anything of that nature...just that I couldn't get to him where I was).

I listened, and He was right. And one thing I have gained is the confidence to trust in His leading. Before, inside I was like a certain well-mocked poster whose positions alter with the changing direction of the winds. I would think one thing, and then fear would push me back in a different direction. I was constantly obsessed with getting it wrong, with doing the wrong thing, and of ending up in hell.

And so it is with extreme gratefullness and faith, that I tell you that if God wants me to go back to my old church, join the non-denominal church I attend occasionally, or to to attend a different church entirely, I am supremely confidant that he will make His desire known to me. Until that time, I am content to stay where I am, resting in Him.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by keith4him

And that same Jesus uses his body to manifest himself on the earth and a vital and significant part of that body is leadership gifts, they are all the body and don't play the only role, but to diminish their role it to try and exist with parts of your own body missing. Good luck in trying to function in life with members missing.

Agreed. That is why I was careful to note that WE DO NEED PASTORS. I love mine. I love the leadership that God has placed in His church. I think I may have been in error to not head-on address the comment about "independence." We're not islands and I don't believe we'll make it if we keep our "independence" to the point where we are not in fellowship with the body.

I'm not diminishing their role - at least not the role that Scripture gives them. But a pastor's role is NOT as a mediator between God and me. That's an abominable theology/tradition that is inherited from Roman Catholicism, and they inherited it from the OT. You simply do not find that example in the New Testament. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2.5. ANYONE, regardless of how well-intentioned he or she may be, who assays to step into that role is in error. A pastor should offer direction and correction with love from the Word of God, but so far as "hearing from God" on someone's behalf... well, that's just not scriptural. That makes for weak and lazy saints, and promotes the whole separation of classes within the church (ministry/laity).

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Me too....

A Good Pastor is a great benefit in a world where it's getting harder and more difficult to find good folks....

except on here of course....

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Tyk

I think you misunderstand how people feel on here . Most people love, or would love and great servant of christ to labor for, and with, and to them. Wise, full of the fruits of the spirit, a loving guide to help them.

*disclaimer (you'll like this) - Your feelings could be drawn from a defensive attitude from most posters here. Many were taught, and or experienced an overlord type Pastor theology. - And they fear/reject that being pushed on them .

A great pastor is like a jewel with wings, as a bad pastor is like lodestone around your neck =(

BINGO!

I don't have an opposition to having a pastor. I actually have a great pastor whom I love and am confident that he loves me. But having recently been delivered from years of spiritual abuse by a "pastor" who was more a "lord over God's heritage" than a servant. He was all about being served and wielding his "authority". It was more about power to him. That's how I came to study this all out, and found that the whole model of "pastoral ministry" as we have inherited it from RCC down through the reformation is NOT the model we find in the first century church.

Spiritual abuse is a very real, emotionally devastating problem in many of our churches today. An outsider might not see it, but it is real. You might look at the congregation I left and see how wonderful everything looks and how organized everything is and how perfect everything seems. He (the pastor) is still pulling in 800 to 900 people every week, but get to know some of those people and hear how they really feel and you might be shocked. An insider knows differently and they're kept in submission by fear of being made an outcast (socially as well as spiritually) or being publicly humiliated.

RevRandy, Bro. Keith, I'm sure you are both outstanding pastors with true servant's hearts and a love for the people of God. Just understand that there are some serious problems out there, and MANY have been hurt by these "wolves in sheeps clothing" who are out for their own aspirations. We need more pastors who are "men of God", and we need to purge out the pastors who are "men of themselves."