Obey Them that Rule???

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by ILG

Then you need a revelation from God on what to do. In the multidude of counselors there is safety. You are responsible for your own choices. I don't think it's always true that we can shuck our responsibilites to the wind in the name of submission.

Agreed. The biggest problem is realizing the hard way the infalibility of all mankind (including and especially myself), makes it extremely to difficult to trust either my own leanings, opinions, etc., or those of others.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Agreed. The biggest problem is realizing the hard way the infalibility of all mankind (including and especially myself), makes it extremely to difficult to trust either my own leanings, opinions, etc., or those of others.

I agree. We have Jesus and his followers defying the Pharisees and Saducees (religious leaders of his day) on the one hand and the scriptures saying "Lean not to thine own understanding" on the other. That is why I think a personal walk with God is so important. We can't be saved without faith and that means being able to hear Him when He calls and being able to listen to His voice.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Right. You make the determination. You decide if your spiritual authority is REAL authority in the REAL church.

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by ILG

I agree. We have Jesus and his followers defying the Pharisees and Saducees (religious leaders of his day) on the one hand and the scriptures saying "Lean not to thine own understanding" on the other. That is why I think a personal walk with God is so important. We can't be saved without faith and that means being able to hear Him when He calls and being able to listen to His voice.

And that ultimately is the lesson to be learned by me, I think. Knowing that i can't trust myself, and I can't trust anyone else. Who can I trust? Only Jesus.

And that in itself is not an easy process. When you are told for so long. This is who Jesus is. This is what Jesus believes. And then you start to question what you were taught. You have to start all over and ask, "Who is this Jesus anyway?" Not the SAFE Jesus that so many would want in their churches, you know the one who would have to shave off his beard and wouldn't be able to hang around sinners, but the real deal.

And when so many lies or partial lies have been mixed with truth, its hard to sort it out. And when you are taught to believe that Church IS God, and that church people ARE OF God, its hard to remember that God is not at fault.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I am spinning this off from the Church Twice a month thread, where during a 'Fix Michlow' intervention, Heb 13:17 has been repeated many many times.

As I was thinking about it this morning, I had these thoughts:

I think we would all agree that we obey them ONLY within the bounds of Biblical truth, we are not going to obey if they tell us to do something that is wrong. So, really, if I don't think the thing I am being ordered to do is biblical, why is that rebellion? And if I obey when I DO believe that what I am being told is biblical, then am I really "Obeying" or am I just doing what I think is right anyway?


I think there needs to be respect built first, I don’t just obey anyone because they think they are entitle to it, far to many say obey the pastor, etc here on these forums, sorry but I don’t know them, so I’m not going to blindly follow after ever wimp of their’s. I think to many are sheep and want someone to tell them what to do, it’s a lot easier then doing what God ask, “pick up your OWN cross!

Yeah I know this will go over like salt in an open wound, so be it, I'm not trying to win points here!

Originally Posted by ILG

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

No, WE don't get to decide. GOD decided. Our job is to obey HIM. It is treason against GOD to assert for ourselves personal sovereignty (such as you are doing in your post). God commands and our job is to obey. Mormons can't make any arguments because Mormons are not of God.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Regarding your example: Did you feel that joining the UPC was of God? You mentioned what you thought, and you mentioned what the elders thought. What what did God want?

I only ask, because there have been times in my life.... Moving to Georgia for example. I was VEHEMENTLY opposed to moving. And I was extremely angry at my husband for making the decision to move. There was no force on this earth that could have gotten me to agree to the move. However, no matter how angry I was, and how against the whole idea I was, I knew it was God's will.

Now, you can say that I "submitted" to my husband and agreed to the move. But that wouldn't be at all true. I submitted to God, who just happened to be on my husband's side that time

Mich,

Because of the fact that we are emtoional beings and can be affected by many different variables, I cannot trust that I will always see things clearly.

The decision in question was not one that could be decided by clear Scriptural precedent. Neither joining or not joining would violate the Word.

I knew my personal judgment was very likely clouded by bad experiences suffered and wounds received.

So because I trust these men and know that they are men of integrity who love me, walk with God, and want the best for me, I choose to trust them at times when I don't have a clear Scriptural edict, or a definite Word from God for myself.

I believe this to be the best safety net I can have.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, GOD already made the determination. God has set up a particular leadership structure in the Church consisting of what is often called the "five-fold" or "four-fold" "ministry" as listed in Ephesians 4:11, i.e. apostles (missionaries - men who go to a place, preach the gospel to the lost, plant the local church made up of the converts, train and install the leadership of that local church, i.e. pastor and elders), prophets (Agabus in the book of Acts, the prophets in Acts 13), evangelists (they go out from the local church and evangelize, they are not apostles and they have no business preaching to believers), pastors (bishops or overseeing elders), and teachers (or, in the four-fold ministry, pastor-teachers, their job is to impart doctrine) and elders. Whether every church was to send out apostles (missionaries) or have prophets and evangelists is not entirely clear but every local church is supposed to have bishops and other elders. This is the authority that GOD has placed in the Church and, thus, is the real authority. We don't get to decide anything.

Originally Posted by ILG

WE decide who the five-fold ministry is and WE decide who we submit to. Mormons could make the same argument and say God told them to wear Mormon underwear.

Thank you ILG, that was my point. Someone can say "Hey God made me the spiritual leader over all of you", but WE determine whether we agree with that statement or not.

Originally Posted by CupCake


I think there needs to be respect built first, I don’t just obey anyone because they think they are entitle to it, far to many say obey the pastor, etc here on these forums, sorry but I don’t know them, so I’m not going to blindly follow after ever wimp of their’s. I think to many are sheep and want someone to tell them what to do, it’s a lot easier then doing what God ask, “pick up your OWN cross!

The Bible says no such thing and you are in rebellion against God if you try to make all these exceptions as to why you should not obey those that have the rule over you (the God-given rule). There's a very specific reason why the Bible uses the word "pastor." It has to do with being a shepherd. What does a shepherd do? He herds sheep. Guess who the sheep are: the saints in the pews.