I was at a UPC church about 6 months ago or so and both saw and heard the UPC pastor get in front of a young girl, and told her to say, "Lalalalalala...like that."
He went to the pulpit a few minutes later to announce that she'd received the Holy Ghost.
I stood there in shock.
Is it Pastor bashing if I say "stupid pastor"? Because that there is stupid. I have seen this happen before too, thankfully not my pastor though.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
What bothers me is that people tolerate this kind of behavior. There are things which should NOT be messed with. Salvation/HGB is one of those things. Someone needs to go to that pastor and call him up short! Someone in his congregation needs to tell him that what he is doing is NOT pleasing to God and that he is playing God himself.
I did that very thing to a very well known UPCI evangelist, whom all on this board would know. He pulled that trick on a young man in the church I pastored. I was HOT. I called him into the pastor's office and asked if I could talk to him. I kept my cool and didn't come uncorked, but I was very firm in stating what I thought was wrong and told him that I was not alone in my thoughts on this but that most folks were afraid to say anything. Since he was the one who left me with the problem, I was not afraid to speak to him. I did not threaten or "curse him. I was clear that I did not agree with it and that I did not think it was biblical etc. We agreed to disagree and parted without anyone losing their temper. I will not disclose his name even via PM, so don't ask!
We had an evangelist come to our church once. He pointed out a brother than had been attending our church but came from a charismatic church. This brother often would get in someones' ear and go "lalalala. say it. lalala, just let it out"...we he asked me if this brother had the Holy Ghost and I explained that I thought so but...then explained to him the part of coming from a charismatic church and how he leads people to speak in tongues...
No like, the evangelists said "Well that is alright as long as the get it"...I was shocked and sad. Brother they ain't getting "it"...they are mimicking what someone else keeps telling them to mimick. Someone might say "but how do you know if maybe someone might be the real thing?": My answer is 1. How would we know they did if we expect them to just mimick us and 2. why take the chance on deceiving hundreds and even thousands of people and have the walking away thinking "Yep, just like I was told, fake."???
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I played for a church once, it was some branch off of COGIC but they called themselves a DELIVERANCE CHURCH. They hired me to come and play for a revival meeting.
They were trying to force people to vomit in a bag - people they felt were bound by something in their life.
It was awful - the sounds were awful but I did enjoy watching it
They've been watching too many re-runs of Semi Tough
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
This stuff happens because churches are performance oriented (I mean they teach and expect signs) but don't want to do what it takes to have services like that...so they resort to gimicks. Jumping off of pulpits never did a thing for me...but because we are peformance oriented we get excited over stuff like that.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Why do we feel the need to comment and often criticize what other churches are doing to reach the lost?
If it works for them, to God be the glory. If we don't approve, don't do it.
I visited Christ Church in Nashville, was amazed and impressed, but didn't really see much that I thought would work in Crawford, Ga. Different atmosphere as to what "church" should be in Nashville and Crawford.
Use what works for you.
ARE they reaching the lost? By Lost I mean people that are sinners, not people from less cool churches
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
This is a great thread with a lot of good points. Just IMO, I think the lack of HGB's and new converts in the AOG and other charismatic organizations can be attributed to several things, but there are two that concern me the most.
1.) There is a complete neglect and lack of fasting and daily, personal prayer by church members/saints. A new testament, Holy Ghost empowered church can NOT survive and thrive with members who won't spend time daily in prayer and fasting. There is power in separation. You can't show up on Sunday and expect to be an effective witness to the Lost, by means of an anointed presentation of the Gospel message after spending all week on everything except focusing on Christ through prayer and fasting.
2.) The lack of true discipleship in most AOG/charismatic churches is alarming. A new convert is simply a seed planted and if that seed isn't nourished through weekly discipleship in small groups then Luke 8:4-8 explains what can happen. The doctrine of HGB should be taught with a purpose in mind. The purpose of Pentecost wasn't so 50-100 saints could all get in a room and talk in tongues together in the local church on Sunday night. The purpose of Pentecost is to communicate the gospel of Christ to an unknowing, dying world and empowerment to live as fully devoted followers of Christ. Many churches explain the how of the Holy Ghost but don't delve into the why. The why is just as important, if not more so than the how.
Discipleship isn't: a)calling new converts to check on them, b)making sure they sign the registration books on Sunday, c)shaking there hand to make them feel welcome, d)showing interest in their personal life when you see them at services, etc...
True discipleship can't be relegated to solely old model Sunday school. It takes, strong personal relationships, very small groups in comfortable, engaging settings, accountability partners and flexibility that isn't always present in the SS environment. If a church relegates the main thrust of it's discipleship to new converts to SS, it won't work.
I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. I don't have half the answers to all of the problems and I know that. But, if the AOG and charismatic movement really want an authentic move of the Holy Ghost again, those two points have to be seriously addressed.
__________________
In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity. Augustine
Mike, are you then saying these mentioned AOG deficiencies are not present in the UPC?
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Linear Mode
