TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Stephanas,
so as not to emotionally invest too much in this post, I'll keep it very simple.

Maybe we're talking past each other a little here. Pardon me if I missed your meaning; perhaps you've missed mine also. But this is the the primary point at the heart of my previous post:

If you were only look at baptized people as being "converts" in both the AG and Oneness (which is how you seem to wish to do it), then yes, we'd then have a valid apples-to-apples comparison. But the reality is far different. You consider the 450,000 "converts" to be a meaningless number. But it is far from meaningless if these are people who've been told they're "saved" because they made a "decision for Christ". Needless to say, those are not just numbers, those are souls -- the majority of which are not properly taught as to what bible salvation truly is.

In the AG they consider anyone who's made a "decision for Christ" to be saved. What this leads to is a lot of people who've sitting in their church pews for years, who've not gone on to be baptized or filled... yet apparently they still think they're ok.

This is what the AG is recognizing -- that over the years they have de-emphasized the Holy Ghost to point that now a sizeable number of their members (perhaps even a majority) don't have the Holy Ghost. I believe that is the natural conclusion to draw not just from their own stats, but from Crabtree's own assessment that "in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God". Meanwhile, I dont think anyone would seriously make a similar statement about the UPC or any Oneness organization I know of.

Are there reliable Oneness statistics to compare to the AG's stats? Not that I'm aware of . But I think a combination of common sense and the available anecdotal evidence paints a pretty clear picture .

Bottom line is, as far as being truly "Pentecostal", the AG is a denomination in decline. Its kinda sad, but not unexpected considering the path they've been on for decades now. What the AG has perpetrated over all these decades now has been a spiritual travesty.

You can't compare the AOG with the UPC statistically because of the huge differences in the conversion process.

If the AOG has huge rallies and 2000 people come to the altar they consider that a decision for Christ while the UPC doesn't consider someone a convert until they have been BAPTIZED both in the Holy Spirit and Water. I don't see how in the world the UPC doesn't have 100% spirit baptism unless they are accounting for children of the members or those who have been water baptized and are just waiting for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Statistically you can't compare Oneness and AOG in Holy Ghost Baptism UNLESS you account for the differences. To be honest a great starting point would be to compare the percentage of those baptized in water to those baptized in the Holy Spirit.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

You can't compare the AOG with the UPC statistically because of the huge differences in the conversion process.

If the AOG has huge rallies and 2000 people come to the altar they consider that a decision for Christ while the UPC doesn't consider someone a convert until they have been BAPTIZED both in the Holy Spirit and Water. I don't see how in the world the UPC doesn't have 100% spirit baptism unless they are accounting for children of the members or those who have been water baptized and are just waiting for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Statistically you can't compare Oneness and AOG in Holy Ghost Baptism UNLESS you account for the differences. To be honest a great starting point would be to compare the percentage of those baptized in water to those baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I don't really have to play the statistics game. This is beyond a statistics issue.

My response is simply this (yes, I'm repeating a part of my previous post):


Statistics or not...

Originally Posted by TRFrance

This is what the AG is recognizing -- that over the years they have de-emphasized the Holy Ghost to point that now a sizeable number of their members (perhaps even a majority) don't have the Holy Ghost. I believe that is the natural conclusion to draw not just from their own stats, but from Crabtree's own assessment that "in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God".


Meanwhile, I dont think anyone would seriously make a similar statement about the UPC or any Oneness organization I know of.

I'll just leave it at that.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I don't really have to play the statistics game. This is beyond a statistics issue.

My response is simply this (yes, I'm repeating a part of my previous post):


Statistics or not...


I'll just leave it at that.

I think we have to realize that just like the UPC the AOG has factions on both sides. Those who are trying to pull the organization towards a revival minded relevant group and those who are trying to maintain the heritage at all cost.

When I visit the local AOG and COG churches there are always those who remind me that they are "pentecostal" and always will be. They share the same fear that the younger generation doesn't place enough emphasis on outward Holy Ghost manifestations. Right now all the established AOG churches in my area are suffering while the nondenominational churches and modern churches are having huge outpourings of the spirit and growth. The local COG has absorbed many from the local AOG and I know of at least 10 people from my former UPC that are now attending the local COG. So revival is happening but the folks have moved from the AOG to other churches.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

while the nondenominational churches and modern churches are having huge outpourings of the spirit and growth. .

Can you define this in detail ?? What do you understand to be "huge outpourings of the spirit" ?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by scotty

Can you define this in detail ?? What do you understand to be "huge outpourings of the spirit" ?

Well, folks are getting the Holy Ghost. Folks who were in dead churches are now full of the fire of Pentecost. You can't go anywhere now without someone talking about the Holy Ghost or speaking in tongues or shouting or getting a blessing. These are not churches I attend but I have known many of these people for a long time and even while I was UPC. They are full of excitement and glad to be out of dying churches. I know many people who are baptist who had received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost but didn't feel comfortable in the local pentecostal churches who are now attending regularly because they feel welcome. I think a lot of this has to do with
at least three young ministers and churches in our area who are hungry for revival.

While this might not be huge in numbers, it is a big deal in the Christian community in my area. I have to admit it makes me a little nervous.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

It just IS a cultural thing. Its OK to learn something new every now and again.

The Black Holiness Movement has always been into tarrying services and they ALLLLLLLLLL are conducted alike. Now you've learned something new.

Oh, and lets not forget tarry and purge night. Lord knows the old school holiness church loved purging services. (yuck) lol.

I disagree with this.

It's not a cultural phenomenon. The first folks to receive the Holy Ghost had to wait several days.

The UPCI in Jacksonville, Orlando, Apopka, and Grand Bay don't have "tarrying services" but they have folks who come down to the altar to call on the name of the Lord, praise and etc until they are filled with the Holy Ghost.

[RandyWayne]

Speaking of "statistics" and numbers, the numbers I remember being emphasized growing up were nearly always attendance figures.
Unfortunately, this is probably because "2 people baptized" was not nearly as impressive sounding as "we broke our attendance record and had 160 for Sunday night service!!!!!!!!". And we all know that to get THIS number usually involved counting everyone with a heartbeat: A mother carrying an infant with another "in the oven" was automatically three people.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Speaking of "statistics" and numbers, the numbers I remember being emphasized growing up were nearly always attendance figures.
Unfortunately, this is probably because "2 people baptized" was not nearly as impressive sounding as "we broke our attendance record and had 160 for Sunday night service!!!!!!!!". And we all know that to get THIS number usually involved counting everyone with a heartbeat: A mother carrying an infant with another "in the oven" was automatically three people.

You know Randy, with so many unsaved people in this world. When 1 gets baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost, that IS a big number. And I think we should rejoice just as much when 1 gets filled with the Holy Ghost as when 20 or more do.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Jermyn,

Did you receive the Holy Ghost when you believed!

If so, did YOU speak in tongues when the Holy Ghost
came!

If not, how did you know you had received the Holy Ghost!
Was there a sign of life! A sound, etc.

Blessings,

Falla39

Bump again for Jermyn Davidson.

[Truthhurts]

Originally Posted by Truthhurts

I have a quick question if it is a promise or free gift only.....why are so many rejecting it. I want everything I can get from God myself.

If it is a promise why is God keeping it from so many............Just a question....truthhurts

I don't have to do that...........No But you get too

Bump de Bump bump