None of the "sheep" in the church I pastor are mine. Therefore no one can steal them from me. I can't have "dibs" on anyone. If we are serving them and their needs are being met, we have no reason to fear them leaving and going somewhere else.
However, if we just expect people to put up with inferior ministry because "our" church is where they got saved, we're fools, IMO.
A few years ago, I had a number of folks from the local PAW church begin attending. There were some serious "secret" moral issues involved, which if came to light, would have destroyed the pastor. It's not my job to do that, so I left the sleeping dog lie. One of the folks was their choir director and also the pastor's Sec'y.
She now loves NLC, the freedom she has and is a blessing. The PAW pastor called her about a year ago and told her that the Lord told him to tell her that she needed to leave our church NOW! At first, I was upset, but she doesn't belong to me. I counseled her to do what the Lord led her to do. She knew what she would be going back to if she left. She decided to stay and now this man no longer has control over her.
I have far more important things to do than to worry about who is trying to take members from NLC. If all they are is members, then they WILL find someplace else who will love them. However, if they're family and receive ministry and love, they're probably not going to want to go elsewhere.
I don't fault anyone for leaving if I am too arrogant to do what it takes to minister to them or their family.
Anyone is welcome here and anyone is welcome to leave! That is freedom, and it sure keeps my blood pressure low!
Yep. The territorialists cant fathom this ...
Also I'm sure there a various sides to this story ...
Each case being unique and "justifiable" ... at least in the story teller's eyes.
The problem that happens here .... is that "franchising" in each fellowship ... gives a traditional Apostolic limited choices in their individual cities ... causing immediate friction for maintaining and sometimes competing for "saved" souls
The poisonous fruit of a "us four, and no more" paradigm.
Although the situations are different, (the former bringing race into the equation) I think our response should be the same.
Pastors should pray for thier saints, counsel them and ultimately let God look after it and keep a good spirit and lines of communication open. There may come a time when that saint who decided to leave needs to come home and they need to know the doors and arms are open.
It does trouble me that a church would try to pull members from another church on basis of race... I think that is the part that troubles the poster as well.
I think that is the main theme of this thread, and the "sheep-stealing" secondary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
My take:
None of the "sheep" in the church I pastor are mine. Therefore no one can steal them from me. I can't have "dibs" on anyone. If we are serving them and their needs are being met, we have no reason to fear them leaving and going somewhere else.
However, if we just expect people to put up with inferior ministry because "our" church is where they got saved, we're fools, IMO.
A few years ago, I had a number of folks from the local PAW church begin attending. There were some serious "secret" moral issues involved, which if came to light, would have destroyed the pastor. It's not my job to do that, so I left the sleeping dog lie. One of the folks was their choir director and also the pastor's Sec'y.
She now loves NLC, the freedom she has and is a blessing. The PAW pastor called her about a year ago and told her that the Lord told him to tell her that she needed to leave our church NOW! At first, I was upset, but she doesn't belong to me. I counseled her to do what the Lord led her to do. She knew what she would be going back to if she left. She decided to stay and now this man no longer has control over her.
I have far more important things to do than to worry about who is trying to take members from NLC. If all they are is members, then they WILL find someplace else who will love them. However, if they're family and receive ministry and love, they're probably not going to want to go elsewhere.
I don't fault anyone for leaving if I am too arrogant to do what it takes to minister to them or their family.
Anyone is welcome here and anyone is welcome to leave! That is freedom, and it sure keeps my blood pressure low!
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
It's easy to jump to that conclusion, however the original post expresses the most concern over the race issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
Yep. The territorialists cant fathom this ...
Also I'm sure there a various sides to this story ...
Each case being unique and "justifiable" ... at least in the story teller's eyes.
The problem that happens here .... is that "franchising" in each fellowship ... gives a traditional Apostolic limited choices in their individual cities ... causing immediate friction for maintaining and sometimes competing for "saved" souls
The poisonous fruit of a "us four, and no more" paradigm.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
I understand the "free to come, free to go" mentality.
However, there is some merit to objecting to someone who sows division and actively seeks to persuade someone to go to another assembly, for various reasons.
I also agree that trying to get a person to go to another church simply because of their race is disturbing.
I understand DA & MOW's points, and I don't think we need to be territorial, per se, but if it was one of MY friends, I would be upset if someone was filling their ears with divisive double speak simply to add to the success of another congregation. How selfish! To try to get someone to go to another church, when they're already saved right where they are! (Assuming there aren't any serious problems.) Those "sheep-stealers" are focusing on moving converts, rather than converting new believers.
DA, don't you have anything to say about such behavior? Address it from both sides, instead of just being critical of the "territorialists."
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
...The poisonous fruit of a "us four, and no more" paradigm.
Sheep stealers are only interested in themselves. If they were focused on the kingdom of God, they would be spending time witnessing to sinners, not pulling on members of other churches.
Talk about "poisonous fruit."
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Sheep stealers are only interested in themselves. If they were focused on the kingdom of God, they would be spending time witnessing to sinners, not pulling on members of other churches.
Talk about "poisonous fruit."
Excellent point. And very true.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
There is a natural tendency for people to hang more comfortably with folks of their same race when all things are equal. This changes as as you get to know people.
Pastors who take advantage racially to steal new converts from another church are despicable, IMO!
__________________ Words: For when an emoticon just isn't enough.
the sheep are not mine...so they cannot be stolen from me. the sheep belong to God...and if anyone tries to steal them away from Him...vengence is His...not mine.
A UPC church has a multicultural congregation. A local PAW does not nor does the local Apostolic Assembly. The AA is all Latino. The AA church has actively sought to take away Latino saints from the UPC. The Pastor of the AA is ok with it. The PAW Pastor gave an invitation to church members when he was at the UPC where he was welcomed to attend. Well one of the UPCs saints went and visited and stayed and the PAW pastor never called.
Members of the AA used to visit the UPC and actually would try to talk Latino members to change churches.
I personally find this disturbing. On the one hand it is unethical to actively try to get saints to change churches. On the other hand I am bothered by the "our kind" mentality. I thought segregation was a racist ideal.
The AA has in the past first gotten the wife to leave the UPC and go to their church, then they tell the husband he needs to follow his wife. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
Anyways, the UPC pastor wanted to be able to get together with the other oneness churches but now is reluctant to do so because of the sheep stealing activities and the lack of ministerial consideration to call the pastor when one of his saints changed churches.
Is this some sort of growing trend? Aren't there enough sinners out there to reach without having to take a bunch from another church? I fully understand why a Pastor would no longer want to associate with the other churches despite them supposed to be brothers of the faith.
What do you think?
I think it's really a bummer.
It does seem to be what humans do.
I think it provides another data point supporting my view that our assemblies are much more accurately descriptions of clubs than God's own church.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
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