What do you think of this? - Page 7

Aquila · #61 01-27-2009, 02:13 PM

I think “sheep stealing” is a degrading term. No pastor owns me the way a farmer owns a sheep. As a husband and a father it is my duty to take my family to a place where they can learn and grow in God. If a pastor isn’t giving us what we need, it’ is my duty to seek the Lord and find a different church.

MissBrattified · #62 01-27-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think “sheep stealing” is a degrading term. No pastor owns me the way a farmer owns a sheep. As a husband and a father it is my duty to take my family to a place where they can learn and grow in God. If a pastor isn’t giving us what we need, it’ is my duty to seek the Lord and find a different church.

Several people object to the terminology, and I'm happy to use a different term if there is a good suggestion.

For the purposes of this conversation, though, I think everyone understands what behavior it refers to, and there's no need to derail the conversation simply because it isn't PC enough.

I don't disagree with ANYthing else in your post. No one is questioning the right of the saint to choose their congregation and pastor. That I'm aware of, anyway.

Praxeas · #63 01-27-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Luke 6:31 ("Do unto others...") is a good one.

I don't think there's any pastor who would like to see a fellow pastor targeting members of his congregation to build up his own membership.

Well said.

Great question.

It's easier to see other people's biases than our own. Just human nature.

Bingo.
These questions cut to the core of the issue here.

And these questions both seem to have been directed at the same people and they have ignored the questions. For some reason they want to villify a UPC pastor because he wants to protect the people he is over. From what I have read the issue was not losing some saints as they have but the issue is the operation of this other church that is clearly not healthy to do.

Is it a healthy church that seeks to pad their pews by targeting churches they claim as brothers? Is that what the church is called to do? Or is it called to reach the lost? Again the issue was made clear. It is not a case of some saints deciding themselves to change churches but saints from one church trying to persuade these other saints from leaving their church.

Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.

Jud 1:19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.

Seems to me a Pastor SHOULD be concerned about something like this. That is not a healthy church to be in IMO.

Praxeas · #64 01-27-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

yes....they are His servants...and I will not judge another's servant.

regarding the health of said church or pastor....again...He is one who knows all. what I may think is right and health....may not be what is right and health.

I have the utmost faith in our Father that He will work all things for the good...and if I hold my peace...then He will fight my battles.

You aren't dealing with what is being said. Is a church that actively targets other congregations to convince members to leave that church and join their own healthy or not? Everything you post just avoids the issue.

Should a Pastor be concerned about the saints he is pastoring or not? Yes or no?

TRFrance · #65 01-27-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

Yes...I do. because i believe the real issue is ownership...not where someone goes to church.

I believe it is God who will execute judgement on thier motives, vainglory, arrogance, etc...and not me...simply another sheep.

My point is...that it is not my place, right, or responsibilty to enforce God's Kingdom, His rules, His boundaries....He will do that.

regarding discord...i would not think someone is sowing discord if they said that XYZ church is better than mine...that is thier opinion....and they might just be right.

maybe i'm a wimp...or too soft-hearted...or hard-headed...but I believe if I do my job...God will provide me with the sheep that I'm suppose to feed. And the ones that wander off...they are His & I pray for God to bless and prosper them...and the ones who wander in...i do my best to love, feed, and nurture.

Maybe you are making that the "real issue". But I think you're ignoring the real "real issue" here.

The primary issue is the practice of encouraging members of a particular church to join someone else's church... and picking those "targets" primarily based on their race.

That is morally questionable behavior at the very least.

We all know they're God's people, and they're all owned by God, and are members of HIS church, etc. No one here disagrees with that fact.

But what we are talking about here primarily is the practice of a church building up it's membership by cherry-picking members of an already established church. Some pastors are going to be more offended/bothered by that practice than others, but the key issue here is the people doing it and thinking it's ok.
The fact it, it happens. I've personally witnessed it in action, and always felt it was wrong. Ultimately, I find it hard to believe that God is pleased with that kind of stuff happening.

Praxeas · #66 01-27-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think “sheep stealing” is a degrading term. No pastor owns me the way a farmer owns a sheep. As a husband and a father it is my duty to take my family to a place where they can learn and grow in God. If a pastor isn’t giving us what we need, it’ is my duty to seek the Lord and find a different church.

The issue here is not some saints thinking they are not being fed and decide to change churches. The first post makes it clear. These are saints attending one congregation and are approached by saints from another church and encouraged to change churches. Not "the saints were not being fed so they looked for another church".

Book 'em Dano · #67 01-27-2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Maybe you are making that the "real issue". But I think you're ignoring the real "real issue" here.

The primary issue is the practice of encouraging members of a particular church to joining someone else's church... and picking those "targets" primarily based on their race.

That is morally questionable behavior at the very least.

We all know they're God's people, and they're all owned by God, and are members of HIS church, etc. No one here disagrees with that fact.

But what we are talking about here primarily is the practice of a church building up it's membership by cherry-picking members of an already established church. Some pastors are going to be more offended/bothered by that practice than others, but the key issue here is the people doing it and thinking it's ok.
The fact it, it happens. I've personally witnessed it in action, and always felt it was wrong. Ultimately, I find it hard to believe that God is pleased with that kind of stuff happening.

Thank you. I don't understand how people are getting what was posted mixed up. This is about one church targeting others of the same faith supposedly. And they are doing so based on race. I would be against any church trying to get larger by working on members of another congregation to begin with. But this whole idea of doing so based on race just makes it stink even more

TRFrance · #68 01-27-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think “sheep stealing” is a degrading term. No pastor owns me the way a farmer owns a sheep. As a husband and a father it is my duty to take my family to a place where they can learn and grow in God. If a pastor isn’t giving us what we need, it’ is my duty to seek the Lord and find a different church.

Semantics,Aquila. Mere semantics.

We are his sheep. That much is biblical, for sure. I'm not going to quibble over the term "sheep stealing". It's not an objectionable term like a few others I could think of.

If "sheep stealing" is a degrading term, maybe because it's describing a degrading and morally reprehensible behavior. No one is bashing the "sheep" here -- it's the pastors and church members of questionable ethics that we're talking about here.

Actively looking to target members of another congregation (who are otherwise happy and well-adjusted where they are) to get them to join your own church is never cool, no matter what term you want to use to describe it.

edjen01 · #69 01-27-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You aren't dealing with what is being said. Is a church that actively targets other congregations to convince members to leave that church and join their own healthy or not? Everything you post just avoids the issue.

Should a Pastor be concerned about the saints he is pastoring or not? Yes or no?

i am sorry that you do not feel i'm answering the issues. i thought i was.

i'll personalize it.....another church that actively targets people in my church to come to thier church...i do not believe i should concern myself with members of another church. does that answer the question? they are not in my church for me to feed....so they are not my concern. if they choose to do this, that, or something else....it is not my concern. my plate is full caring for the ones God has allowed me to care for. if they are right or wrong....is not for me to say or judge....they are not mine....they are HIS.

Should I be concerned about the saints I am pastoring....yes.

MissBrattified · #70 01-27-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

i am sorry that you do not feel i'm answering the issues. i thought i was.

i'll personalize it.....another church that actively targets people in my church to come to thier church...i do not believe i should concern myself with members of another church. does that answer the question? they are not in my church for me to feed....so they are not my concern. if they choose to do this, that, or something else....it is not my concern. my plate is full caring for the ones God has allowed me to care for. if they are right or wrong....is not for me to say or judge....they are not mine....they are HIS.

Should I be concerned about the saints I am pastoring....yes.

Would you actively participate in persuading saints from another congregation to leave their assembly and attend yours? Do you consider such action to be unethical or immoral?