Babylon in Revelations

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

for whatever reason, this post reminded me of my years as a bible quizzing coach.

3-part question might be:
Who gave what to whom according Revelation 1:1 (reminder...be careful of the pronoun rule!)

Ahhhhhhhhhhh Bible quizzing...

Been there... done that. LOL

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe it is probably America.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I believe it is probably America.

Supposition, pure and simple.

No Biblical backup at all!

Brethren, give us Scriptures.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Supposition, pure and simple.

No Biblical backup at all!

Brethren, give us Scriptures.

Hi Brother,

My supposition is built on several things. Number one that we are living at the beginning of the end times.

If THAT is true what nation on Earth today fits this:

7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11: And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: Rev. 18:7-11

Who buys most of the worlds goods? Is it not us? Is it not hard to find things made in the USA?

What would happen to the high finance merchants around the world if America was devestated with a nuclear attack?

15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16: And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18: And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19: And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev. 18:15-19

Could the same be said of any other nation in existence today? The worlds merchants would wail and mourn?

Some will say this has not happened.

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev. 18:24

And its true except for a few martys here and there.

But that does not mean it wont. It could happen here just like it has happened in other great nations.

Speculation ? Yes? Got anything better for me to believe?

[Digging4Truth]

You stopped just shy of the parts that would begin to give your speculation trouble.

Again... one inescapable thing to note... she is guilty of ALL of the blood of the prophets.

Jesus called Jerusalem the city that kills the prophets and said that he would have to travel nearly 3 days to get to Jerusalem because "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem".

You did well to stop at verse 19 because the speculation you are making wouldn't hold up many more verses.

[tbpew]

D4T,
I am still quivering under my desk in the fetal position, just plain skeerd to take on this issue because I know you've got some "partial preterist punch pending".

Since our last exchange, I have sought God's counsels and have meditated on some scriptural settings, in particular: Jer 51:6-12, Rev 14:7-12, 16:15-21, 17 1-7, and Rev 18.

My premise (admittedly a bias) is that the city of Babylon we read about in the OT would be a foreshadow of what Mystery Babylon would be in the realm of spiritual dynamics.

I submit that as Jerusalem was a center in the dynamic of natural Israel and New Jerusalem is the revelation of God's holy assembly, the same applies to Babylon and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babyon will not be a place, but rather a community comprised of believers in some false salvation (I was searching for God to provide me some clearer phrase to express this, but for now I do not have a better one). The power that comes from earthly wealth is worshipped as the alternative to abiding in God's house. This is why I made an earlier reference to Balaam as a natural example; seeing gain as godliness.

We read in Jerimiah 51:7 that Babyon was God's GOLDEN CUP and those nations that drink from it become drunken, the identical language is applied to the Great Whore of Rev 17:4.

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

The fornication bears a fruit. The fruit supplies the feedstock for a wine. The wine induces a drunken condition.

I continue to be drawn to a couple of strange things:
SEDUCTION is at the core of this MYSTERY BABYLON, but I am confident it is not in any manner SEXUAL. Since we understand the power of seduction as it pertains to a harlot and fornications, it is used as the language to convey the imagery; the rulers, kings, and nations are drawn to her ability to provide pleasures.

Then the most fascinating thing is recorded by John in Rev 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John looked upon this imagery WITH GREAT ADMIRATION. An image that he understood to be drunken with blood of Saints and martyrs.

What ever it is, its seduction transcends our normal ability to even imagine; its inticements are fully enveloped with a mystical charm and beauty (of some kind). So much so, that it prompts the angel to ask:

Wherefore didst thou marvel?

So. prompted by this thread's OP, I speculated and proposed a MYSTERY (spiritual) alternative [faith] that 'invests' all confidence in the riches (a Golden Cup) in the economies of this world. Then, I wondered outloud (possibly, in hindsight a mistake), concerning whether the blood of saints and martyrs may resulted from something similar to what charmed John...that in looking into this Golden Cup of Mystery Babylon, their vision was overtaken by something 'marvelous' and they were trapped.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by tbpew

D4T,
I am still quivering under my desk in the fetal position, just plain skeerd to take on this issue because I know you've got some "partial preterist punch pending".

Since our last exchange, I have sought God's counsels and have meditated on some scriptural settings, in particular: Jer 51:6-12, Rev 14:7-12, 16:15-21, 17 1-7, and Rev 18.

My premise (admittedly a bias) is that the city of Babylon we read about in the OT would be a foreshadow of what Mystery Babylon would be in the realm of spiritual dynamics.

I submit that as Jerusalem was a center in the dynamic of natural Israel and New Jerusalem is the revelation of God's holy assembly, the same applies to Babylon and Mystery Babylon. Mystery Babyon will not be a place, but rather a community comprised of believers in some false salvation (I was searching for God to provide me some clearer phrase to express this, but for now I do not have a better one). The power that comes from earthly wealth is worshipped as the alternative to abiding in God's house. This is why I made an earlier reference to Balaam as a natural example; seeing gain as godliness.

We read in Jerimiah 51:7 that Babyon was God's GOLDEN CUP and those nations that drink from it become drunken, the identical language is applied to the Great Whore of Rev 17:4.

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

The fornication bears a fruit. The fruit supplies the feedstock for a wine. The wine induces a drunken condition.

I continue to be drawn to a couple of strange things:
SEDUCTION is at the core of this MYSTERY BABYLON, but I am confident it is not in any manner SEXUAL. Since we understand the power of seduction as it pertains to a harlot and fornications, it is used as the language to convey the imagery; the rulers, kings, and nations are drawn to her ability to provide pleasures.

Then the most fascinating thing is recorded by John in Rev 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John looked upon this imagery WITH GREAT ADMIRATION. An image that he understood to be drunken with blood of Saints and martyrs.

What ever it is, its seduction transcends our normal ability to even imagine; its inticements are fully enveloped with a mystical charm and beauty (of some kind). So much so, that it prompts the angel to ask:

Wherefore didst thou marvel?

So. prompted by this thread's OP, I speculated and proposed a MYSTERY (spiritual) alternative [faith] that 'invests' all confidence in the riches (a Golden Cup) in the economies of this world. Then, I wondered outloud (possibly, in hindsight a mistake), concerning whether the blood of saints and martyrs may resulted from something similar to what charmed John...that in looking into this Golden Cup of Mystery Babylon, their vision was overtaken by something 'marvelous' and they were trapped.

I will respond to your post in more detail a little later on...

I think that the combination of the prophets blood & what Jesus had to say is a very formidable consideration. Although no one is commenting on this aspect that failure to address such has made me appear as a one string guitarist so I will be forced to relent from bringing this up again and again.

But... making this quick post. The application of the Book Of The Revelation Of Jesus Christ will also have to do with the intended time of application.

Revelation 1:1 (a seemingly good place to start) tells us...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

I know that we have spoken about this before and I am aware of your feelings about time and the Bible's freedom from the constraints of such.

But doesn't the Bible say "Not many days hence" and other such time related terminologies. Are we to be able to have no faith whatsoever in the utterances of the word of God when it deals with time?

I bring this up because as long as we can take the template of the writings of Revelation and apply them any place we see a fit down the timeline of history then there are, assuredly, a number of places it would fit.

But whomever this great whore is she cannot fulfill 92% of the words spoken about her. She must fulfill them all since those words were penned from the very mouth of God.

My apologies that I haven't offered any answer to your questioning... as long as this post is... I am in a hurry and have to get back to work.

Please let me know what stirrings this brings in your own mind and what questions they compel you to offer me.

We learn most when we discuss with people who don't see things exactly like ourselves. That is when new and previously unsought realities begin to be placed within our minds. This is when growth occurs and I appreciate your input.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hi Brother,

My supposition is built on several things. Number one that we are living at the beginning of the end times.

If THAT is true what nation on Earth today fits this:

7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11: And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: Rev. 18:7-11

Who buys most of the worlds goods? Is it not us? Is it not hard to find things made in the USA?

What would happen to the high finance merchants around the world if America was devestated with a nuclear attack?

15: The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16: And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18: And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19: And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev. 18:15-19

Could the same be said of any other nation in existence today? The worlds merchants would wail and mourn?

Some will say this has not happened.

24: And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Rev. 18:24

And its true except for a few martys here and there.

But that does not mean it wont. It could happen here just like it has happened in other great nations.

Speculation ? Yes? Got anything better for me to believe?

Well, you have some problems with lining these Scriptures up with the Good Old USA.

7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

When was she married to God? This is a direct takeoff of the Old Testament.

Lam 1:1 How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!
Lam 1:2 She weepeth sore in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all her lovers she hath none to comfort her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.
Lam 1:3 Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.
Lam 1:4 The ways of Zion do mourn, because none come to the solemn feasts: all her gates are desolate: her priests sigh, her virgins are afflicted, and she is in bitterness.

We see here that Jerusalem is called a Widow.

Brother Michael

What say you?

[tbpew]

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermeneutical requirement.

As one setting out to further chart an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other explorers.

If you already possess a 100% applicable "great whore" (I feel so funny writing that line), please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some of your thinking here.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by tbpew

dig,
you know I have the utmost respect for your approach and demeanor involving discussion of scripture.

Somehow this particular topic feels like we are riding two different rails through the same station. We can see each other, but we did not start at the same point and imagine different destinations.

I have never been big on Rome or Jerusalem or even the US being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots.

I connect the Great Whore, with Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlots.

My view of the scriptures we call the NT is that they testify of principles involving INVISIBLE things; things that have their reality in that which is ABOVE the earthly realm; the spiritual realm.

As such, I have never been big on looking to Rome or to Jerusalem or even to the US as being Mystery Babylon, The Mother of Harlots. This seduction transcends any one earthly kingdom or power.

So, I have tried to explain that I was out to consider that a "universal seductress" may be manifested in the earth's economies; these engines are the means for humankind to acquire wealth as a means to power. When this idea is peppered with the plain witness that "the love of money is the ROOT OF ALL EVIL", it seems to get some traction in my pondering.

I tossed that idea out in my first post. I bumped into something that you feel is a principle being ignored (things can not be 92% applicable). I have 0% problem agreeing with you on this hermenutical requirement.

As one setting out to further explore an unknown river, I think it would be impossible to outline the whole trip to recruit other sojourners.

If you have already possess a 100% applicable "great whore", please catch me up.

PS: Dig, I am going to need you to connect the dots with your cite:
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

If every prophet MUST PERISH inside of Jerusalem, please share the principle for me that is established in the law. I need your help in supply of some your thinking here.

TBPEW

I will also allow Diggin to make his own reply, but you raise a very interesting point, one of which I have considered before myself.

One of the problems that I have with total and absolute preterism is that, it seems to be, in one way, similar to Futurism, in that they both seem to be extremes. I have brought up to others the idea of a principal or spirit of Babylon, one that reoccurs throughout time. If we take and apply that as a principal theory then it does change things a bit.

I don't know, it is interesting though and one that I have personally looked at for some time!

TJJJ