Do you believe the innocent party in a situation

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Good email exchange.

Still don't agree.

BUT consider these scriptures:

Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged."

1 Corinthians 8:12 "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ."

If the child in Colossians becomes discouraged/spiritless and weak to only fall into sin, does his father share some of the blame for causing this to happen?

Is the brother in I Corinthians 8 held accountable for wounding a weak brother? The scripture says he "sinned" in causing his brother to stumble while he was weak.

1 Corinthians 7:5 "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

Does I Corinthians 7 warn each party NOT to defraud each other because you can cause the other to fall into temptation?

I answer - YES!

EACH party will be held accountable. The one that gave into the temptation and sinned and the party that "defrauded" and caused the weak partner to sin.



Okay, case closed. That's all I have to say -

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

BUT consider these scriptures:

Colossians 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged."

1 Corinthians 8:12 "But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ."

If the child in Colossians becomes discouraged/spiritless and weak to only fall into sin, does his father share some of the blame for causing this to happen?

Is the brother in I Corinthians 8 held accountable for wounding a weak brother? The scripture says he "sinned" in causing his brother to stumble while he was weak.

1 Corinthians 7:5 "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

Does I Corinthians 7 warn each party NOT to defraud each other because you can cause the other to fall into temptation?

I answer - YES!

EACH party will be held accountable. The one that gave into the temptation and sinned and the party that "defrauded" and caused the weak partner to sin.



Okay, case closed. That's all I have to say -

You've already posted these scriptures............the warning is to keep the other from falling into temptation.

You've already got your validation from your email exchange - - you don't need it from me.

Case is closed for you, but still not sure about me.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

You've already posted these scriptures............the warning is to keep the other from falling into temptation.

You've already got your validation from your email exchange - - you don't need it from me.

Case is closed for you, but still not sure about me.

That's fine and we can disagree. I just wanted to end my portion here with my thoughts a little more concise.

I'd also like to add, in the event it's been forgotten that we have discussed this - defrauding is not always and the only reason for falling into adultery or any other sin. It is only one aspect.

I only centered on that point because of several phones calls I have received and conversation I have had with women not realizing that three fingers were pointing back at them while they were complaining about their husbands. It has annoyed me so much, that this thread was my place to vent. Toe torry!

[*AQuietPlace*]

My only disagreement is with the word CAUSE. Cause someone to sin. I think since we're each responsible for ourselves, no one can cause us to sin. It's our choice.

Make us vulnerable? Yes. Definitely.

PO, just for the record, I do completely see what you mean. I have a cousin whose husband was a JERK. First-class, rabid jerk. I detest him. He treated her like a DOG. My cousin eventually 'met' someone on the internet, then met him in person and had an affair with him.

My response? Honestly? "I don't blame her!!"

Yep, that's what I said! My carnal nature did not blame her in the least. Her jerk of a husband had it coming.

But, the reality...... she was still wrong. She sinned. His jerkiness did not excuse her sin. And though my carnal nature wanted to cheer her on, my spiritual nature had to acknowledge that she was wrong. No matter how bad her circumstances were, she made the choice to have an affair. The wrong choice.

To me, that's the bottom line.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

My only disagreement is with the word CAUSE. Cause someone to sin. I think since we're each responsible for ourselves, no one can cause us to sin. It's our choice.

Make us vulnerable? Yes. Definitely.

PO, just for the record, I do completely see what you mean. I have a cousin whose husband was a JERK. First-class, rabid jerk. I detest him. He treated her like a DOG. My cousin eventually 'met' someone on the internet, then met him in person and had an affair with him.

My response? Honestly? "I don't blame her!!"

Yep, that's what I said! My carnal nature did not blame her in the least. Her jerk of a husband had it coming.

But, the reality...... she was still wrong. She sinned. His jerkiness did not excuse her sin. And though my carnal nature wanted to cheer her on, my spiritual nature had to acknowledge that she was wrong. No matter how bad her circumstances were, she made the choice to have an affair. The wrong choice.

To me, that's the bottom line.

That's how I see it too.

[rgcraig]

Here's a part of an email that I received:

It can be taken to any extreme, a wife turning her husband into a cuckold does not MAKE him lose his salvation, a preacher unreasonable lording over people and shaming them in public does not MAKE people give up on church. And a wife withholding does not MAKE her husband have an affair. Ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves. What degree any us blame our environment? I don't know only God does.

But I can tell you from a man's point of view if a woman uses sex as a point of persuasion, even a little bit, even on rare occasions her husband will put sex in the prostitution category of his brain and there will never be intimacy.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

My only disagreement is with the word CAUSE. Cause someone to sin. I think since we're each responsible for ourselves, no one can cause us to sin. It's our choice.

Make us vulnerable? Yes. Definitely.

PO, just for the record, I do completely see what you mean. I have a cousin whose husband was a JERK. First-class, rabid jerk. I detest him. He treated her like a DOG. My cousin eventually 'met' someone on the internet, then met him in person and had an affair with him.

My response? Honestly? "I don't blame her!!"

Yep, that's what I said! My carnal nature did not blame her in the least. Her jerk of a husband had it coming.

But, the reality...... she was still wrong. She sinned. His jerkiness did not excuse her sin. And though my carnal nature wanted to cheer her on, my spiritual nature had to acknowledge that she was wrong. No matter how bad her circumstances were, she made the choice to have an affair. The wrong choice.

To me, that's the bottom line.

I would agree with you, except, for the three scriptures I posted. It appears that there is responsibility for both parties to not hurt the weak or cause them to fall into temptation.

I'm sure I would have felt the same way you did about your friend. I actually felt that way about mine and the story I told. Same scenerio, but they never met. She confessed to her husband before it went too far. He is very careful with her now. I'm sure that is not the norm.

We can see it is possible to cause a person to stumble in Malachi 2:8 "But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts."

And in Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

All I'm saying is that many times we want to blame the one that fell into the temptation, but we are not looking at the part we had a hand in.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I would agree with you, except, for the three scriptures I posted. It appears that there is responsibility for both parties to not hurt the weak or cause them to fall into temptation.

This statement I completely agree with.

I also think it's noteworthy that the verses say 'cause to stumble', or 'occasion to fall' not 'cause to fall'. There's a difference between stumbling and falling.

'Cause to stumble' or 'occasion to fall'... that's temptation. We absolutely can be responsible for causing someone to be tempted.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This statement I completely agree with.

I also think it's noteworthy that the verses say 'cause to stumble', or 'occasion to fall' not 'cause to fall'. There's a difference between stumbling and falling.

'Cause to stumble' or 'occasion to fall'... that's temptation. We absolutely can be responsible for causing someone to be tempted.

I'm sorry, but the Word absolutely says we can cause a person to fail and to fall - to be ruined.

Stumble:

H3782
כּשׁל
kâshal
kaw-shal'
A primitive root; to totter or waver (through weakness of the legs, especially the ankle); by implication to falter, stumble, faint or fall: - bereave [from the margin], cast down, be decayed, (cause to) fail, (cause, make to) fall (down, -ing), feeble, be (the) ruin (-ed, of), (be) overthrown, (cause to) stumble, X utterly, be weak.

[MissBrattified]

PO, you are just wrong. There ARE divorces in which one person is innocent and the other is guilty. And that's all there is to it. MANY people choose to sin all on their own, through no fault of anyone else around them, or their "environment." IF someone else contributed, especially knowingly, they should ask God to forgive them, but a failure, whether its the sin of lying or the sin of adultery does not indicate anyone else's guilt except for the person who made the choice.

I think that's the part of your posts I'm really objecting to. It seems like you're saying there can never be an innocent party, that if there's a problem, both parties must have contributed, and I really, vehemently disagree.

The presence of a fall doesn't necessarily point to someone pushing. IF a person pushes another over a ledge, especially on purpose--well, I agree--they have something to repent of. But otherwise, the person jumped on their own.