Things like honesty and integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people, etc. are commandments and teachings directly addressed in Scripture. No one challenges "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." No one challenges "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The only "fuss" is in relation to those outward standards that are not Scriptural.
In fact the notion that these clear teachings of Scripture are regarded as "standards" and not "teachings" or "commandments" is a bit unsettling. We cannot confuse the the two.
I "fuss" about them because of all the unnecessary bitterness caused by extra-biblical "standards" that people have created.
People already have enough trials in life to have someone else had "sleeve length" or some rule involving sports made into a heaven or hell issue. These things are often the straws that break the backs of those who may have STAYED in the church had it not been for the added pressure.
I "fuss" about them because of all the unnecessary bitterness caused by extra-biblical "standards" that people have created. [/B]
People already have enough trials in life to have someone else had "sleeve length" or some rule involving sports made into a heaven or hell issue. These things are often the straws that break the backs of those who may have STAYED in the church had it not been for the added pressure.
RandyWayne,
"Fuss" in the title of my thread was in regard to all the recent threads that
were started on the subject of "standards".
And when it all said and done, "fussed" and discussed, etc. on what is bibical
or non-Bibical, there is still those things that the Holy Ghost teaches. The
truth was hidden from the wise (in their own eyes) and prudent and revealed
to babes(open, honest). God sees the heart of man and knows the thoughts
and intent of what's in there. He knows the motives He sees there. The words
we speak come directly from our heart/mind. And from the abundance of the
heart that mouth is going to reveal what is in it, good or bad.
No offense intended.
Falla39
John 14:26, 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 Cor.2:13, 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Lovely post sister. I was deeply moved and can sincerely see the loving spirit with which you submitted it. But I do want to share my thoughts as a 33 year old man who has only walked with the Lord 20 years.
I think the "fuss over standards" comes from our being able to read God's Word for ourselves. For example, my previous pastor taught us that if we had facial hair we'd go to Hell. I remember crying my eyes out at the alter feeling like something was deeply wrong with me because I thought some facial hair looked good and in my heart, as a baby faced young man, I wanted facial hair because I thought it would make me look more masculine. I was horrified that my feelings for something so sinful indicated a deeper problem and it left me weeping at the altar more than once. All of us young men were dangled over Hell because our pastor didn't believe in facial hair. Yet when I was on the minister's team and I was searching my heart and searching the Scriptures to find where I stood regarding standards... I found no such standard in the Bible. It was a tradition of man. I spent time weeping over my desire for facial hair and failed to address some of the deeper issues lingering in my own heart. I was being distracted by the superficial, majoring in minors, and was failing to really "grow in God". I made a comprehensive list of all the standards I had been taught, standards I believed I would preach as a preacher and decided to find Scripture for them all. Because if I was going to preach... I had to know in my heart that I was preaching the Word of God not just my elder's, elder's opinion. I found that the vast majority of our standards, regarded emphatically as Heaven or Hell issues (I attended an ultra conservative UPCI church) were not necessarily in the Scriptures. I was shaken to the core when I realized that all I had to preach about were man made standards and opinions passed down from two generations back. I realized that my enemy wasn't necessarily sin (Christ dealt with sin on the cross) but it was the poison of Pharisaical religiosity... the very same enemy Christ faced more than once.
I think that as people search the Scriptures with commentary and resources becoming ever so plentiful via software and the internet people are discovering how so many of our standards aren't explicit commands of Scripture. Those who study the Scriptures independently without a denominational/organizational filter are typically the one's voicing their dismay at some of our standards. Those who proudly wave the banner of a denomination or organization rally around said standard in the name of preserving the way as filtered and defined by their denomination or organization.
In a way it's sad because so many elders and old timers who bought into the traditional standards lock, stock, and barrel are watching their standards be abandoned. But in a way it's also a blessing because we see more and more of us turning to the Scriptures alone to define our faith and practices. In a way... being sold out to human standards lowers the value of our Christian walk... because our walk is based on the rules of man... not necessarily the Word of God.
I loved the story you presented. It was very warm and heartfelt. I felt a tinge of guilt for some of the standards that I've abandoned because I couldn't find them in the Word of God. But then I notice something about this story.... it contained no Scripture. It was an emotionally driven statement, powerful, and provoking... but it doesn't address the crux of the problem... so many of our traditional standards aren't Scriptural. From standards on facial hair, the belief in magic hair, absolutely not jewelry (not even wedding bands), to no television, radio, or internet. None of these things are commanded in Scripture.
We were taught that if we had a question... "find it in the Bible"... well... now we're reading the Bible and some things we just ain't findin'.
Of course we're on dangerous territory. When believers started reading the Bible in previous centuries the Catholic Church decided to ban the private reading of Scripture without the proper interpretation from their established religious authorities and chained the Bible to the pulpit in a dead tongue, Latin. Thank God we live in America.
I believe this is the best post I have ever read on here regarding this issue!!
]I "fuss" about them because of all the unnecessary bitterness caused by extra-biblical "standards" that people have created.
People already have enough trials in life to have someone else had "sleeve length" or some rule involving sports made into a heaven or hell issue. These things are often the straws that break the backs of those who may have STAYED in the church had it not been for the added pressure.
[/B]
RandyWayne,
I really do like you and am not picking on you at all.
Dear Brother, if things like "sleeve length" and some rule involving sports
are causing anyone to be bitter, something is wrong somewhere. With
divorce rates high and soaring high, kids on drugs, committing suicide, and
getting invoved in crime, etc. and we major on things you mentioned. The
enemy had MAGNIFIED the minors and de-valued the major. Now why would
the enemy do that. I'll tell you why! To bring confusion and God is not the
author of confusion.
If people would get on their knees and pray about things instead of getting
them inside and letting them fester and infect the whole body, which could
bring death, spiritual or otherwise, there would be more victory in homes and
churches. Seek the LORD about everything!! The HOLY GHOST is there to
lead and guide.
I do not depend on any person to give me the answers that
are important to me. I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the
highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY! I have never found a problem HE
could not solve or a question He could not answer! HE IS THE KING!!!
I don't believe it is a matter of someone getting "bitter" over sleeve length. I think it is a matter of getting focused on the wrong thing. There is no bible to support many of the traditional UPC standards so to teach them as a heaven or hell issue to me is false doctrine. I don't hold many of the traditional standards and I am by no means bitter at anyone that still holds them or those that taught them to me-I respect their opinions and if I am around them I dress in a way so that I will not offend but in most cases I don't believe the respect goes both ways - but oh well - I don't have to answer for anyone but myself.
I just remembered a lesson I was taught in a Leadership class at my company...it is called Motivating Principles and it goes like this:
1. You can not motivate other people
2. All people are motivated
3. People are motivated for their reasons, not yours
4. A strength over used, can become a weakness
5. If I know more about you than you do me, then I can control the communication
6. If I know more about you than you do yourself, I can control you
I realize that the above is not Biblical, and it can be argued from more then one side - still, the point I am trying to bring across is MOTIVATION. I believe our motives, or the motives of those who are in leadership over us must be weighed in the balence, especially concerning things like standards, which as we have seen on this forum are highly debated.
At the end of the day, if there is a question....ask. If there is a problem....communicate. I know there are many folks with many persuasions concerning standards of outward appearence, and even recreational activities. I also am perceptive enough to know that sometimes folks like to skirt around issues in an attempt to flank the original intent. Anotherwards, its almost like reverse physcology. We can do the end a round to come back to the main point - wheather that is for or against certain things...in this case, standards and the fuss thereof.
Is it possible for a pastor or leader to really care for your soul, but be misled at the same time...sure - but what is their motive? i would suspect to get to the bottom of a question in any of our minds it will take open and honest communication...not just implication.
Sis. Falla is right when she makes reference to finding the will of God for herself. We need to walk in the Spirit, and be led of the Spirit. We need to also look at our own motives for why we do or are about to do a thing. There are invariably two sides to this coin - let us just remember to love one another, and not judge, lest we be judged by the same measure.
I really do like you and am not picking on you at all.
Dear Brother, if things like "sleeve length" and some rule involving sports
are causing anyone to be bitter, something is wrong somewhere. With
divorce rates high and soaring high, kids on drugs, committing suicide, and
getting invoved in crime, etc. and we major on things you mentioned. The
enemy had MAGNIFIED the minors and de-valued the major. Now why would
the enemy do that. I'll tell you why! To bring confusion and God is not the
author of confusion.
If people would get on their knees and pray about things instead of getting
them inside and letting them fester and infect the whole body, which could
bring death, spiritual or otherwise, there would be more victory in homes and
churches. Seek the LORD about everything!! The HOLY GHOST is there to
lead and guide.
I do not depend on any person to give me the answers that
are important to me. I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the
highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY! I have never found a problem HE
could not solve or a question He could not answer! HE IS THE KING!!!
Blessings, Brother RandyWayne!
Falla39
Beautifully put, Sis Falla. This post sounds so much like something my dear Grandmother would have said.
Sinatra
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Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point in order to move forward.
There is SO much more to "standards" than just what we wear. There is honesty and
integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people. Standards involve every area
of our lives. There are moral standards, standards of the heart, etc.
We need the Spirit of the Living God to lead and guide us continually. IF we look to man
for our direction, we will get man's ideas. If we look to the Word of God and
depend on His Spirit and walk in, and are led by the Spirit of Almighty God,
we won't have to find out too soon, too late that we have been deceived. If we know what thus saith the Word of God, and have the Holy Spirit to
illuminate and open our understanding we won't be disappointed. We were
pointed to the Word of God all our lives. The Word of God was promoted big
time in our home and the church our late parents pastored.
My husband and I will celebrate our 50th Wedding Anniv. on July 11th. We
both received the Holy Ghost the summer of 1958. Dad opened the doors of
the storefront church he, with his wife and eleven children, founded, Nov.12,
1958, We married the following July 11th, 1959. We have never left. Five of
our six children and 16 of our 20 grandchildren still go to the church my late
parents founded. The other son and wife, with their four children, go to an
apostolic church in a neighboring city where they live. All of our adult children
are married to their original spouses. The youngest has been married 12 yrs.,
the eldest has been married 27 yrs. and all in between. Our middle daughter
and husband who pastor the church now, was married 18 yrs. ago yesterday.
God has been good to our family. Those good family values and all that goes
with it, has surely paid off with huge dividends.
No, our lives have not all been easy. We have had our trials and stuggles,
but God has been with us, by His Spirit from the beginning until now and we
have no doubt that HE will be with us all the way! He said HE would be our
guide, even until death. Psalms 48:15
Just giving God some Praise for all HE has done, doing and will continue to do,
in Jesus Name!
Blessings,
Falla39
You are a blessing and inspiuration as always.
Quote:
There is SO much more to "standards" than just what we wear. There is honesty and
integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people. Standards involve every area
of our lives. There are moral standards, standards of the heart, etc.
Part of the problem is that when most people in the movement regardless of position on the sliding scale betwixt ultra-con and liberal is that the word "standards" brings to mind the big list with "no pants on women" up around the top and "no open toed shoes" down around the bottom under the "may or may not apply here" section.
It becomes all about outward. And sadley in many places the outward is the only thing preached.
Most of the biggest standards not preached or argued about are the moral and standards of the heart.
Even many of the outward ones, though not directly biblical, have nothing wrong with them. If a pastor, watching for peoples souls holds a higher standard of modesty than what the world considers modest, what of it? It has never caused me pain, embarrassment or mental anguish to never wear shorts or a t-shirt in public. It didn't traumatize me when the preacher preached "don't go to the movie theater". I don't even think about those things because I have walked in this way long enough that it is just my nature to do stuff that others seem so up in arms over.
There is nothing in the Bible about smoking cigars either, so one could say that is a preacher preaches against smoking a cigar, he is making an extra-biblical rule.
Even though a number of years have past since your upbringing it hasn't vanished from the earth. Having higher standards is a good thing and has benefited my household tremendously and I am blessed. My wife is loved where ever she goes because of her kindness and generosity, the folks she works with know where her lines are drawn and don't violate them, not because she might haul off and hit them with a holy stick, but because the love and respect her. They can count on her.
My 18 year old daughter is still pure, liked and respected by her peers and teachers alike, loved by the young people in church that she is an example for. And, me. Well I am just me. Nobody likes me...
I wouldn't trade all that just for the ability to wear a speedo at the beach, or any other so-called "liberty" that is available. I place value on what we have and will keep it no matter who does what.
I appreciate your testimony and fine example you have set with your life!
For the Benefit of others let me big an bold here: I am talking about much more than clothes, I don't even see the whole shorts-no movie theater thing as even being a standard, just a thing I do that I don't hold anybody else too.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 06-17-2009 at 08:34 AM.
After our early morning walk on the track a couple of mornings ago. I asked
my husband of almost 50 yrs what are standards for. He told me that every-
thing has a standard. Time, clocks are set to a standard. Gold has a standard.
He told me that when the standard of anything is lowered, it loses value.
To lower standards is to lower the quality. When the stock market is down,
and the value is lowered, everyone wants to buy because they can buy it
cheap. But when the market is up, people want to sell because the value is
high.
If lowering the standards causes the quality to be lowered, and value to
be lost, why on earth would anyone desire to lower their standards.
Moses set the bounds for the mountain.
My father and mother together set some standards of what they wanted
their home to be. They set high standards. Some through the years have
thought they set them too high. Guys in high school thought my dad was
too strict because they couldn't date me. Their standards didn't measure
up to our family values or worth that my parents had placed on their family.
When we started to school, we already knew the standards set for OUR
family and home. No one was to touch our family values. They were ours
and they were precious for the safety and protection of our home. All 11
of we siblings graduated, some with honors, all with respect, because of
the high value system put in place by our parents. They relied on their God
to help them raise their family in the fear and admonition of the LORD!
In 1958, when Dad took the family alter to a small storefront building just
off main street, the standards didn't change. For over 30 yrs. he preached
a high standard to those who chose to come and listen. Today our family
and extended family are highly respected and the memory of our parents
are revered in the hearts and minds of the people of our city.
As we became young adults, of course we had the choice to set the
standard for our own homes and families.
For the life of me, I cannot perceive WHY anyone would want to lower
the standard in their homes and families, and churches. To lower the value
and quality of something SO dear. Many people do not respect those who
lower their standards, quality and value.
Just some thoughts as there has been a lot of discussion on the subject
of standards. Why would anyone want to "drop" the standards. especially
if good strong values were instilled from the beginning with godly parents.
Jesus is the Standard God set for the Family of God. His Son was the
standard set for His Family. HIGH and LIFTED UP, SHINING IN THE LIGHT
OF HIS GLORY!!!
As always, my words are not to offend, but to provoke thought.
Falla39
With all due respect, Sis. Falla, more standards does not equal better. Emma Bontrager just about got on here to tell you why your standards are low and dismal.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
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