My dear sister, you are absolutely right, it is and was those "standards of the heart" that build strength into our family. Mom and Daddy required these standards of their children, honesty and respect of those around us. I remember one of us sassing a neighbor, and Dad requiring a face to face apology to that neighbor. These things of character are honorable and make us respected by our community, and by the grace of God I see them in my own adult children.
My point is: It is those things of the heart that made the difference in our family, so I have to believe it is those standards to which you are referring. And from that perspective I totally embrace and agree with all that you have presented.
Amen, amen, and amen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39
If people would get on their knees and pray about things instead of getting
them inside and letting them fester and infect the whole body, which could
bring death, spiritual or otherwise, there would be more victory in homes and
churches. Seek the LORD about everything!! The HOLY GHOST is there to
lead and guide.
I do not depend on any person to give me the answers that
are important to me. I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the
highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY! I have never found a problem HE
could not solve or a question He could not answer! HE IS THE KING!!!
Unfortunately, people in strong "standards" churches are not usually allowed to do that. It doesn't matter what God says to them, it only matters what the rules of the church are. That is what you will do, period. And your kids will do that, too, even if it's not your own family's conviction.
This leaves many of us with the very difficult decision of having to pull up roots and change churches to be allowed to have a little freedom to follow our own principles, and not the principles of people who lived 50 years ago and set the rules.
It's fine and dandy to say "I love the standards, what's the big deal"... but what about those of us who DON'T love them?
What about my son who lay crying on my bed because he wants to wear short sleeves (and I mean above-the-elbow, people, not tank tops!)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Atkinson
It becomes all about outward. And sadley in many places the outward is the only thing preached.
My kids went to a youth conference recently.... a huge building FULL of youth. Three sermons - three sermons about standards. No joke. That is ALL that was preached. Splits, short sleeves, short skirts, nail polish..... yadda yadda yadda. I was so frustrated I could have cried. A whole building full of youth, in a very precarious time of their lives, and you can't use this time to truly draw them closer to the heart of God?
Some of you truly don't understand what a huge issue this "standards" thing is in some circles.
Things like honesty and integrity, principals, how we treat and respect people, etc. are commandments and teachings directly addressed in Scripture. No one challenges "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." No one challenges "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself." The only "fuss" is in relation to those outward standards that are not Scriptural. In fact the notion that these clear teachings of Scripture are regarded as "standards" and not "teachings" or "commandments" is a bit unsettling. We cannot confuse the the two.
And we don't want to forget the first and greatest which is to love the LORD, our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
Every man is responsible for his own house. You are responsible for what you teach your children. Not anyone else. You are responsible to GOD for what you have sown and birthed.
My dad took that responsibility more seriously than any man I have ever known. He never felt adequete to do it alone, always seeking the face of his MAKER, through the leading of the Holy Ghost he received at age 15 yrs. He learned to go to His God before he married, looked to God for a wife, and when their children (11) came along. He did the same when he was inducted into the U.S. Army and was sent overseas, leaving behind a young wife and four children under 7 yrs old. He learned to trust his God on the front lines of battle in WWII, not willing to carry a weapon, but chose to carry two medical bags instead, to treat the wounded and help carry the dead off the front lines of battle..!
He came home and raised eleven children, seven sons and four daughters, raising them in the fear and admonition of his GOD. Founded a church, put eleven children through high school and most have had some additional education, etc. Pastored while working a full time job, in order to support his
large family. Never shirked his responsibility in providing his family, with both physical and spiritual needs. He took his questions to God in prayer in a back bedroom where he would come out with red rimmed eyes where he knew he
could find answers for any situation in regard to his family or church. There is
SO much I could say about this man we called "Daddy". I probably should have started a "Fathers Day" thread instead of posting this here. But I didn't....!
Yes, the standards (measure of excellence) for everything we are today, started in our home. Dad didn't buy everything someone said. He found his answers elsewhere. I am my father's daughter. The only reason I am on this forum in just maybe,... I can help someone along life's way and my living will not have been in vain!
Unfortunately, people in strong "standards" churches are not usually allowed to do that. It doesn't matter what God says to them, it only matters what the rules of the church are. That is what you will do, period. And your kids will do that, too, even if it's not your own family's conviction.
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
Quote:
My kids went to a youth conference recently.... a huge building FULL of youth. Three sermons - three sermons about standards. No joke. That is ALL that was preached. Splits, short sleeves, short skirts, nail polish..... yadda yadda yadda. I was so frustrated I could have cried. A whole building full of youth, in a very precarious time of their lives, and you can't use this time to truly draw them closer to the heart of God?
Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. And not based on his personal likes or dislikes of red clothes and etc...Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a log. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstick they shake the walls...
__________________
Last edited by John Atkinson; 06-17-2009 at 09:09 AM.
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
This is so true that it just brought tears to my eyes.
I was just thinking about this yesterday... my kids have NO problem - or at least no resentment - over rules that my husband and I set for them. They may disagree with us, but they respect us and know that we love them and have their best interests at heart. We have a good relationship with them, and they don't resent us even if they disagree.
But the things that we don't allow them to do just because it's a 'church rule'. THOSE things they resent, strongly. And they start equating church with God, and yes, it starts turning their hearts away from God.
This is killing me right now, and I have to find answers!
Quote:
Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a stump. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstich they shake the walls...
Amen! You want to get a crowd on their feet screaming, just start preaching standards. Or preach a "gotcha" style message. People love it when other people are being nailed.
Preach about love, having character, giving to the poor... you can hear a pin drop sometimes.
At the risk of being labeled a liberal, I must agree. In the strong outward standards preaching churches, thinking is verboten. And when you force force force a kid to line up to a bunch of arbitrary rules... when they get old... they WILL depart from it.
Now that is a crying shame.
For one, though I have no problem with the standard standards, it is the PASTOR'S job to teach, and even he needs to do that with wisdom and gentle leading, not with a pulpit hammer. Not the job of a conference preacher.
And we wonder why so many do grow up and bail from the movement the minute they can.
There is a difference between having (and even preaching) standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty, and just plain legalistic bombardment.
Seen too many places where a man of God can preach about the victory we have in Jesus and the power of the cross and people sit like moss on a log. Then the first time someone mentions television or lipstick they shake the walls...
I believe, Sis. Falla is saying that if we as mature believers will seek and study that the Holy Spirit will teach us what we should do about "standards".
And with Him as guide there is no need for us to be "fussing" with one another about standards. She is not trying to impose her standards, on anyone else, only challenging each of us to turn to God and to follow Him.
John, I disagree that it is the pastor's job to teach folks how to dress, if he will teach folks to seek after God, as Falla has encouraged, the Spirit and the word will set the standards. And you were agreeing with her point.
Sis. Falla can correct me if I have missed her point.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I believe, Sis. Falla is saying that if we as mature believers will seek and study that the Holy Spirit will teach us what we should do about "standards".
And with Him as guide there is no need for us to be "fussing" with one another about standards. She is not trying to impose her standards, on anyone else, only challenging each of us to turn to God and to follow Him.
John, I disagree that it is the pastor's job to teach folks how to dress, if he will teach folks to seek after God, as Falla has encouraged, the Spirit and the word will set the standards. And you were agreeing with her point.
Sis. Falla can correct me if I have missed her point.
Bro. My exact words were standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty.
I did amend my post to say "not the pastor's personal likes and dislikes concerning red clothes and etc."
I was agreeing with her point. We have this misunderstand each other thing going. I will try and be more clear.
I mentioned in another post on another thread some time back, that IF we do not
teach our children what we want them to know, someone else will teach them some-
thing we do not want them to know.
We must take the responibility of our own. Pastors have families too. I do not believe
that God meant for any father or mother to turn THEIR over to someone else to "feed"
provide for, or otherwise. Every man shall bear his OWN burden. And if we don't like what
a restaurant serves up, we usually go elsewhere for a while and if we don't like or get
tired of that eating place, we leave there too. Well, why not go home and fix what you
and your family like. Then eat at home! It's better for you and is probably safer and
cleaner. FEED your kids before they go elsewhere and they will know what good food
really is. And if you don't trust the ones who will be feeding them, keep them at HOME!!
Why don't we that don't like what the schools and churches do, DO it yourself, at HOME.
Who wants someone else over on their place, digging in your garden. Digging around
your plants, etc. Taking liberties that are not their liberty. No, most should take
pride in what they planted and they should want to take care of it themselves so when
the "fruit" of their labour comes to fruition, they can take pleasure in what their labor
brought forth.
Homeschool. Family Alter, Bible studies at HOME!! If we don't take the res-
ponsible for our children, who will. God set a plan that was workable. Many
do not like that plan today. Man work by the sweat of his brow! Sounds like
God intended man to work hard to provide for his "garden". And the woman
would bear children in travail and labor. If she goes the natural way, she will
go through labor, equal to, and more than a sweating man. She will sweat
most likely sweat too.
This is not to offend but to provoke thought! It is not personally directed
at any one person.
I really do like you and am not picking on you at all.
Dear Brother, if things like "sleeve length" and some rule involving sports
are causing anyone to be bitter, something is wrong somewhere. With
divorce rates high and soaring high, kids on drugs, committing suicide, and
getting invoved in crime, etc. and we major on things you mentioned. The
enemy had MAGNIFIED the minors and de-valued the major. Now why would
the enemy do that. I'll tell you why! To bring confusion and God is not the
author of confusion.
If people would get on their knees and pray about things instead of getting
them inside and letting them fester and infect the whole body, which could
bring death, spiritual or otherwise, there would be more victory in homes and
churches. Seek the LORD about everything!! The HOLY GHOST is there to
lead and guide.
I do not depend on any person to give me the answers that
are important to me. I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the
highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY! I have never found a problem HE
could not solve or a question He could not answer! HE IS THE KING!!!
Blessings, Brother RandyWayne!
Falla39
First, you post as it stands is right on.
However.....
Quote:
Dear Brother, if things like "sleeve length" and some rule involving sports
are causing anyone to be bitter, something is wrong somewhere.
While this may be true, everyone has a different "breaking point". A stumbling block could be as simple as a small rock or wet spot on the pavement. Remember that the STRAW by itself did not break the camels back, it was all the other weight -with the straw added too it, that finally did the poor animal in.
Quote:
I take my "case", whatever it may be to the, to the
highest court. TO THE FINAL AUTHORITY!
Exactly as it should be, but my experience tells me that the "highest court" is often the pastors office or pulpit, at least as it has been defined in many conservative churches. "Obey them..." has taken precedent over what the Word actually says about an issue or principle.
Dad never looked to the government to provide for his family.
Dad never looked to the schools, etc. to provide for his children's
spiritual learning.
Dad never looked to anyone else to feed his family. (not one dime of
welfare money was spent on his family). He provided with the provision
his GOD provided. You never saw many "skinny" Blakey children. LOL!
Dad never saw a need his GOD could not meet!!!
I am what I am today because of my God and my earthly father. If he
is somewhere in the grandstands of heaven, viewing my posts, he well
knows I am so thankful for my God and His son, my father.
Falla39
1 John 3:1-3,
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
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