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  #41  
Old 06-17-2009, 09:58 AM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
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Location: AZ
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Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace* View Post
This is so true that it just brought tears to my eyes.

I was just thinking about this yesterday... my kids have NO problem - or at least no resentment - over rules that my husband and I set for them. They may disagree with us, but they respect us and know that we love them and have their best interests at heart. We have a good relationship with them, and they don't resent us even if they disagree.

But the things that we don't allow them to do just because it's a 'church rule'. THOSE things they resent, strongly. And they start equating church with God, and yes, it starts turning their hearts away from God.

This is killing me right now, and I have to find answers!





Amen! You want to get a crowd on their feet screaming, just start preaching standards. Or preach a "gotcha" style message. People love it when other people are being nailed.

Preach about love, having character, giving to the poor... you can hear a pin drop sometimes.
This is perhaps the single biggest reason I still have strong resentment to many things in the church I was in as a teen. My parents were mere proxies for the pastor. HIS will was done in our house. My parents were more concerned with my lining up with the rest of the kids in order for them to look good (and thus just as saved) as the rest of the perfect church-going, pew-sitting, black suit wearing head of the household, families.

And yes, when I became old enough to vote, I DID depart from it!

As far as your second part goes, I also agree. I've often said that any church standards (if taught) should be taught in private. When screamed over the pulpit, it becomes a situation where most people in the audience know who is NOT following the rules and many who are feel all the more saved as a result. Smug alert!
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  #42  
Old 06-17-2009, 10:09 AM
Falla39's Avatar
Falla39 Falla39 is offline
Wouldn't Take Nothin' For My Journey Now!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,358
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinatra View Post
Beautifully put, Sis Falla. This post sounds so much like something my dear Grandmother would have said.

Sinatra
Sis. Sinatra,

My late paternal grandmother was such a godly influence in my own life.
Godly grandmothers, who have the wisdom, that comes with age and
experience, can be a powerful influence in grandchildren's lives. Your
grandmother obviously made an impression on you! I pray God will direct
me in influencing my own grandchildren's lives. I am a grandmother 20
times. 15 G-sons, 5-G-daughters. All in church, To God be the GLORY!
Influence can be gained without saying a word. But living a godly life, with
lots of hugs and kind words will almost guarantee you favor with your
children's children. Goes for mothers and fathers too.

Hugs,

Falla39
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  #43  
Old 06-17-2009, 10:36 AM
*AQuietPlace*'s Avatar
*AQuietPlace* *AQuietPlace* is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,363
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

I don't think standards are the real issue we're debating, anyway. It's legalism.

Everyone has standards of varying degrees and descriptions, and no one is bothered by other people's "standards"... but what we face in the OP movement is legalism. Making our own particular rules and dress codes a matter of salvation. And that's what can cause some real controversy, and stirs up so much discussion.
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  #44  
Old 06-17-2009, 10:57 AM
Sinatra Sinatra is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 811
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
Sis. Sinatra,

My late paternal grandmother was such a godly influence in my own life.
Godly grandmothers, who have the wisdom, that comes with age and
experience, can be a powerful influence in grandchildren's lives. Your
grandmother obviously made an impression on you! I pray God will direct
me in influencing my own grandchildren's lives. I am a grandmother 20
times. 15 G-sons, 5-G-daughters. All in church, To God be the GLORY!
Influence can be gained without saying a word. But living a godly life, with
lots of hugs and kind words will almost guarantee you favor with your
children's children. Goes for mothers and fathers too.


Hugs,

Falla39



So true. I learned early with my own children, yes you have to teach (train) them; but that sometimes the greatest lesson comes in how you live your lfe. Not just the life you live in public, but the way you live it in private. They are always observing and kids have a "phoniness" detector. You only have one chance to "raise" them, so may God help us to do it right.

I remember once going to my prayer closet, travailing over something I was going through; when I began to notice a weight on my back. Suddenly I hear my youngest (3 at the time) saying Jesus, Jesus, with her head lying on my back. When we had finished praying, I remember her looking at me and saying, "When I grow up, I want to be just like you". That melted my heart but it also cemented in me how much children are observing our "hidden" life. God help me to be an example to my children. To teach them but to also help them to learn for themselves.

For me personally, I encourage my children that it's ok to question what they "hear" the Bible says. I want them to know how to pray and how to study God's word. To KNOW what the Bible says not just know what we've told them it says. I want my children to know how to go to God in prayer and HIS word for answers. I won't be here forever, but God will and they need to know that. They need to know that I don't have all the answers, but HE does!!

And on another note, from reading your writings these last couple months, I don't see how you could do anything but be a Godly influence on not only your Grandchildren but on any who are blessed to meet you!! Yes, thank God for Godly Grandmothers!! Sis. Falla, I you!

Hugs to you,
Sinatra
__________________
Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point in order to move forward.
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  #45  
Old 06-17-2009, 01:25 PM
Falla39's Avatar
Falla39 Falla39 is offline
Wouldn't Take Nothin' For My Journey Now!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,358
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

I have mentioned several times that my husband and I will be married 50 yrs.,July 11, 2009.

It makes me almost shiver to this day to think of the trap we could have fallen into If it
had not been for my godly grandmother and her son, my father. I don't know what would
have happened to us.

My husband received the Holy Ghost in 1958 in a Texas city. Verbal Bean was the evang-
elist. I met my husband as our family visited this revival and later after this revival ended
we began to date seriously. Became engaged and about the same time my late father be-
gan the church he founded in our city. The pastor where the revival was held, did not want
to lose my husband as a new convert and started "counseling" him on the side.

One of the things we were praying about was about to be "challenged" by this pastor.

Instead of continuing to pray together about some things, my fiance started telling me, "I
had decided this and that". I said, "Then you feel that is what the Lord would have us do"?
He said, "I didn't say that. I said, "I have decided". I explained I was afraid to marry a man
who was not willing to pray God's Will with me for an answer".

Before the evening was over, he let me know that the pastor where he had received the
Holy Ghost, had instructed him to TELL me that he, as the man, had decided. The pastor was
the one who had decided. HE had also set an appointment with my fiance' for the pastor to
pre-marital counsel us. I did go with him for the appointment, but I had such a heaviness
about it, that I was so distressed by the time I got home that when Dad asked me why we
were so late, I told Dad I was so tired I didn't want to talk about it. Dad knew I was distres-
sed and pressed me about the meeting.

The pastor also wanted the rings my fiance' had bought me. Using some OT scriptures to get
his point across. My fiance' also told me he had already felt led of the Spirit and had told his
mother he believed God wanted us to go to my father's newly founded church.

That has been 50 yrs as this happened a while before we married July 11, 1959.

O, how I thank God for the wisdom and instuction of a godly father and mother. The
prayers of my late grandmother, my late father and mother, was enough to put the
enemy to fllight. These were the ones watching for our souls.

After we married, my husband's cousin who married this pastor's divorced sister who
was the church piano player, would come on Monday morning (he worked where we both
worked), and would tell us, especially me, about the powerful services they had had on
Sunday. Complete with the interperaton that anyone talking about this pastor, someone
in their family was going to die. Being young in the LORD, it was a fearful thing to me.

The fear of man brings a snare (trap). The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
Also the beginning of knowledge and understanding. I have learned that GOD IS GOD and
man is NOT!

In my spirit I knew something was wrong but didn't know what. I prayed and
desired God to show me HIS WILL. I desired to do His WIll. At 19 yrs old I was
learning a respectful, revential fear of the LORD. I still do fear the LORD in a
healthy way. But I first learned to respect and reference my earthly father.

Not long after this cousin who kept me "informed" concerning the "awesome" ser-
vices, always with tongues and interpetations, usually the pastor's wife or
sister, I walked into the office where I worked and picked up a Dallas news-
paper. There was my answer to what was wrong. "Pastor Sets Fire To Church".


This pastor had taken out a policy on this small church and set the "rummage
sale" items stored in the church, on fire after a Sunday night service. Except
the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build.
While it revealed to
me where the problem lay, I was saddened. This pastor and wife also evange-
lized and came to my hometown when we were little kids. I loved to hear them
sing, so beautifully. How he got out of going in prison, I do not know.

But the organization asked him to sit in a church of their choosing for two
years and he was unwilling to do so. He went east of Dallas and attempted
to do a work but it never seemed to amount to much. He was killed in an
airplane crash with another minister some years later. His wife later backslide
and some of the people went back to UPC churches and have done well.

I just felt to tell this portion of my life as I could have fell into a trap and
been in some of the places some of you have been entrapped. BUT for the
grace and mercy of ALMIGHTY GOD, I could have a different story. But be-
cause of listening to someone who had been further down the road and was
older and wiser than myself, God saved us from a lot of sorrow.


Through the years there were times I did not always understand why my father did
or said some things, BUT I did learn that IF I would trust and obey, later on I could
see the wisdom in it. I knew Dad trusted and obeyed his FATHER. Jesus
only DID and SAID what HIS FATHER told him to do and say.

This is not a preacher or pastor bashing post. It is about the fact that man
is still flesh and bones. He is human.

Falla39
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  #46  
Old 06-17-2009, 01:36 PM
RandyWayne RandyWayne is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AZ
Posts: 16,746
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Great story. I wish you would have shared it earlier (not just in this thread but weeks and months ago)! (Or maybe you did on more than one occasion and I just didn't see it...)
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  #47  
Old 06-17-2009, 01:45 PM
Falla39's Avatar
Falla39 Falla39 is offline
Wouldn't Take Nothin' For My Journey Now!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,358
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne View Post
Great story. I wish you would have shared it earlier (not just in this thread but weeks and months ago)! (Or maybe you did on more than one occasion and I just didn't see it...)
I have shared many things and had thought to relate this part of my
story, but only felt a release to post it today. Maybe because some may
feel I don't understand some things but this may help them to see that
I have experienced some things too.

There are many, many other things I could say BUT I must wait for His
release.

Blessings,

Falla39
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  #48  
Old 06-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Falla39's Avatar
Falla39 Falla39 is offline
Wouldn't Take Nothin' For My Journey Now!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,358
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinatra View Post
So true. I learned early with my own children, yes you have to teach (train) them; but that sometimes the greatest lesson comes in how you live your lfe. Not just the life you live in public, but the way you live it in private. They are always observing and kids have a "phoniness" detector. You only have one chance to "raise" them, so may God help us to do it right.

I remember once going to my prayer closet, travailing over something I was going through; when I began to notice a weight on my back. Suddenly I hear my youngest (3 at the time) saying Jesus, Jesus, with her head lying on my back. When we had finished praying, I remember her looking at me and saying, "When I grow up, I want to be just like you". That melted my heart but it also cemented in me how much children are observing our "hidden" life. God help me to be an example to my children. To teach them but to also help them to learn for themselves.

For me personally, I encourage my children that it's ok to question what they "hear" the Bible says. I want them to know how to pray and how to study God's word. To KNOW what the Bible says not just know what we've told them it says. I want my children to know how to go to God in prayer and HIS word for answers. I won't be here forever, but God will and they need to know that. They need to know that I don't have all the answers, but HE does!!

And on another note, from reading your writings these last couple months, I don't see how you could do anything but be a Godly influence on not only your Grandchildren but on any who are blessed to meet you!! Yes, thank God for Godly Grandmothers!! Sis. Falla, I you!

Hugs to you,
Sinatra
Bless you, Sweet Sister,

That is precious and thank you for sharing about your little daughter. I had
a mental picture of that.
I don't know if you have read my story about how we came to be apostolics
or not. If not, I'll sent you the link. Also another one where the church my
late father founded, honored me for serving as church secretary for 50 yrs.
This is my 51st yr. It is an honor to serve God in this capacity.

Hugs,

Falla39
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  #49  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:05 PM
crakjak's Avatar
crakjak crakjak is offline
crakjak


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Atkinson View Post
Bro. My exact words were standards of morality, character, behavior and modesty.

I did amend my post to say "not the pastor's personal likes and dislikes concerning red clothes and etc."

I was agreeing with her point. We have this misunderstand each other thing going. I will try and be more clear.

Actually, I was using your post as a take off for my post, I could see that you were agreeing. I believe we are in agreement in most of our positions.
__________________
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)


www.tentmaker.org
www.coventryreserve.org
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  #50  
Old 06-17-2009, 05:18 PM
crakjak's Avatar
crakjak crakjak is offline
crakjak


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
Re: Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
I have mentioned several times that my husband and I will be married 50 yrs.,July 11, 2009.

It makes me almost shiver to this day to think of the trap we could have fallen into If it
had not been for my godly grandmother and her son, my father. I don't know what would
have happened to us.

My husband received the Holy Ghost in 1958 in a Texas city. Verbal Bean was the evang-
elist. I met my husband as our family visited this revival and later after this revival ended
we began to date seriously. Became engaged and about the same time my late father be-
gan the church he founded in our city. The pastor where the revival was held, did not want
to lose my husband as a new convert and started "counseling" him on the side.

One of the things we were praying about was about to be "challenged" by this pastor.

Instead of continuing to pray together about some things, my fiance started telling me, "I
had decided this and that". I said, "Then you feel that is what the Lord would have us do"?
He said, "I didn't say that. I said, "I have decided". I explained I was afraid to marry a man
who was not willing to pray God's Will with me for an answer".

Before the evening was over, he let me know that the pastor where he had received the
Holy Ghost, had instructed him to TELL me that he, as the man, had decided. The pastor was
the one who had decided. HE had also set an appointment with my fiance' for the pastor to
pre-marital counsel us. I did go with him for the appointment, but I had such a heaviness
about it, that I was so distressed by the time I got home that when Dad asked me why we
were so late, I told Dad I was so tired I didn't want to talk about it. Dad knew I was distres-
sed and pressed me about the meeting.

The pastor also wanted the rings my fiance' had bought me. Using some OT scriptures to get
his point across. My fiance' also told me he had already felt led of the Spirit and had told his
mother he believed God wanted us to go to my father's newly founded church.

That has been 50 yrs as this happened a while before we married July 11, 1959.

O, how I thank God for the wisdom and instuction of a godly father and mother. The
prayers of my late grandmother, my late father and mother, was enough to put the
enemy to fllight. These were the ones watching for our souls.

After we married, my husband's cousin who married this pastor's divorced sister who
was the church piano player, would come on Monday morning (he worked where we both
worked), and would tell us, especially me, about the powerful services they had had on
Sunday. Complete with the interperaton that anyone talking about this pastor, someone
in their family was going to die. Being young in the LORD, it was a fearful thing to me.

The fear of man brings a snare (trap). The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
Also the beginning of knowledge and understanding. I have learned that GOD IS GOD and
man is NOT!

In my spirit I knew something was wrong but didn't know what. I prayed and
desired God to show me HIS WILL. I desired to do His WIll. At 19 yrs old I was
learning a respectful, revential fear of the LORD. I still do fear the LORD in a
healthy way. But I first learned to respect and reference my earthly father.

Not long after this cousin who kept me "informed" concerning the "awesome" ser-
vices, always with tongues and interpetations, usually the pastor's wife or
sister, I walked into the office where I worked and picked up a Dallas news-
paper. There was my answer to what was wrong. "Pastor Sets Fire To Church".


This pastor had taken out a policy on this small church and set the "rummage
sale" items stored in the church, on fire after a Sunday night service. Except
the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build.
While it revealed to
me where the problem lay, I was saddened. This pastor and wife also evange-
lized and came to my hometown when we were little kids. I loved to hear them
sing, so beautifully. How he got out of going in prison, I do not know.

But the organization asked him to sit in a church of their choosing for two
years and he was unwilling to do so. He went east of Dallas and attempted
to do a work but it never seemed to amount to much. He was killed in an
airplane crash with another minister some years later. His wife later backslide
and some of the people went back to UPC churches and have done well.

I just felt to tell this portion of my life as I could have fell into a trap and
been in some of the places some of you have been entrapped. BUT for the
grace and mercy of ALMIGHTY GOD, I could have a different story. But be-
cause of listening to someone who had been further down the road and was
older and wiser than myself, God saved us from a lot of sorrow.


Through the years there were times I did not always understand why my father did
or said some things, BUT I did learn that IF I would trust and obey, later on I could
see the wisdom in it. I knew Dad trusted and obeyed his FATHER. Jesus
only DID and SAID what HIS FATHER told him to do and say.

This is not a preacher or pastor bashing post. It is about the fact that man
is still flesh and bones. He is human.

Falla39

Great post, Falla! We were very fortunate to have a father who was not motivated by money or position, rather he was motivated by what was good and right. Dad was truly a man of character and goodness, a man of his word.

Thanks for sharing some details that even I had not heard.

BTW: What was he going to do with the rings?
__________________
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)


www.tentmaker.org
www.coventryreserve.org

Last edited by crakjak; 06-17-2009 at 05:37 PM.
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