The Times...They are a-Changin'

[Carpenter]

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs...

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

[tbpew]

Carp,
thanks for sharing some stirrings from your experiences.

As one whose primary experience of 'not forsaking the assembly' is "house-to-house", AND as one who believes the most effective and transparent spiritual ministry occurs when unity of purpose is manifested as 2 or 3 are gathered together in the authority of our Lord and savoiur, I found a certain joyous witness in reading your assessments.

Most Central Delivery Systems 'CDLs' do an admirable job of conveying information to a group, but the same delivery approach struggles to foster intimate relationship that is purposed between the individual creature and the creator.

IMO, there is a general propensity to be snared in the same manner that the Galatians were, to begin a journey with the receipt of the Spirit as a gift, and then revert back to trying to be completed (perfected) by the means available within the carnal mind; the flesh.

Groups are a construct that can be fully discerned and managed by the carnal mind. Those who will follow the same one that Abraham was lead by will find very little validity in any man-club.

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs...

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

[EA]

Carpenter, methinks you are on to something.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs...

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

I do agree.

What those within the afore mentioned hierarchy will find the most troubling is their inability to stop the changes.

In fact, their very attempts to stop it will likely accelerate things.

[HopePreacher]

There are quite a few societal changes that are affecting the body of Christ today, not the least of which is the movement away from larger influence groups to samller support type groups.

It does seem that we are moving closer to the New Testament model of Acts 2:42 which seems to be that of going from house to house in fellowship, breaking bread, prayer and teaching.

With that being said there is also the herd instinct among us that enjoys the atmosphere of a large group. Examples are sports arenas, concert halls and megachurches.

The ideal church today may be one that holds small groups as a core value and a source for spiritual growth and maturity while offering the larger corporate meeting as a place of inspiration and celebration.

Those among us who still see "the church" as the Sunday morning Wednesday night crowd may face dwindling membership.

I am an old school aged 60 something warrior and I can tell you that the changes I have had to make inorder to be effective in the 21st century have not been easy, but some time ago I realized that I had to trim the vine of old ideas or the vine itself would die along with the old ideas.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

There is a young man in our local UPC here, who I observed to be totally plugged in and appearing to be a member of the establishment (20th century thinking on my part), only when I had an opportunity to speak to him he told me, I don't consider myself Pentecostal or Apostolic, or even a member of The Blue Peaks and Green Valleys UPC Tabernacle.

I was stunned really but when I began to think about it, I bet not even the pastor knows this...and I bet he isn't the only one.

There is a reconing to be had here soon, and the hard liners can puff and groan, and call me all manner of sordid names, but I am not thinking it will have much affect on you beyond observation from your wheelchairs...

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

As quickly and as drastic as things are changing, I don't think there is something in the works where people won't want to consider themselves members of a church.

Rather, we will find the church that ministers to our needs-- a church that is relevant.

[Blubayou]

I think you are on to something here.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

I have been thinking alot lately how the x-generation and the y-generation coming with and after me is being educated, their attitude toward work, their specialties, and learning styles.

If you look at business and education today it is not what the baby boomer experienced in terms of a top down hierarchy and vertical business structure. No longer do kids out of school expect to work for the same company for 20-30 years and they are experiencing no loyalty from these companies.

The same thing with school, the environment is much more collaborative than it has ever been.

People my age and younger are finding that belonging to a group and having a collective title is not as appealing. We are finding that very few people graduating from college have any interest whatsoever in being members of professional associations.

I believe that you are right, but you also have to look at the "end of the story."

Those same people are typically, unproductive, have no capacity to create, live a self indulgent lifestyle, believe that something is owed to them, that government should take care of them, are lazy, not faithful, heavily in debt, and really affect no other lives.

So while your analysis is probably more right than it is wrong, it is not good. Just look at the "parents" of those who are under 30. They have no parenting skills, their kids are committing suicide at record numbers, on anti depressants, cutting themselves, joining gangs in record numbers, and having sex with everyone around including the same gender.

In my daughter's High School their were 80 pregnant girls. This all comes from some place...it's the theology of this group that you are talking about.

I believe the days of traditional church structure are coming to an end. I am not saying that churches are going to die, what I am saying is that people are not going to be tied in as closely as they once were as "members".

Again there is some truth in what you are saying. We are seeing the church "change", however the change is producing a very weak Christian who says that they love Jesus but are hopping from bed to bed, drinking, cussings, partying like the world on Saturday and they rejoicing with the worship team on Sunday.

It is totally contrary to the multitude of scripture that talks about being like a "tree planted."

I know I don't post much anymore, but like I said in my previous post, I am really exhausted with all the worship of the organization and movement and even local churches. It is sad to see the Lord Jesus transcended by culture and pomp and circumstance.

The worship of organization is not God's plan. But stability is. What I believe that you will see is that as Isaiah states (60:1-2) while gross darkness covers the world and people their will be a glorious church that arises. One that is committed, loves Jesus more than the world, whose focal point is like the fathers of the faith who are committed to getting God's work wrapped up.

[ChTatum]

This is a great thread. Probably won't stay on page one long.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

This is a great thread. Probably won't stay on page one long.

nope......................................























































probably not!