Oneness and Trinitarian Unity?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by OGIA

He did the same many times when He walked the earth and on the day of Pentecost and beyond, Felicity. It doesn't mean He wants them to stay that way, though.

I never said that he wants them to stay any particular way. I think He expects we're all going to grow and mature as we walk with God. That's certainly the plan anyhow. Some never do of course, but hopefully most do.

He leads us by His Spirit and His Word .... but there are different interpretations of what the Word teaches. We have all these different ideas and views and doctrines even within the Oneness movement.

If someone came along and told us (apostolic Oneness people) that we were erring doctrinally on a certain point that has been ingrained in us and a tradition that has been kept for many many years we'd have a hard time accepting that and making the changes. I can guarantee you.

I know that for ourselves every person who has ever attended the churches we've pastored - who sat under my husband's ministry and submitted to his leadership - if they were baptized in the titles, they were rebaptized in the name of Jesus.

It took time to show them why and to do some teaching. Some were slower than others in responding but eventually they too were rebaptized.

The exception to this is the church we're pastoring now. But we're working on this and have baptized a couple dozen or more since coming here a couple years ago. There are certainly more sitting in this particular congregation who need to be re-baptized in Jesus name.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Chan

Will anyone ever have a full revelation of Jesus while we're still here in this world?

No

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by OGIA

Do you believe the Jews worship the same God as you?


They worship the same Son of God, maybe; and that's a BIG maybe.

They worship a Jesus that was an eternal person, coexisting with the Only True God, who was made flesh. I do not believe the Jesus I worship to be that. So, that is why I say that they do not worship the same Jesus as me.

If worship is not in spirit and in truth, is it accepted by the Father? Do you think they worship Him as the Father, who demands worship in spirit AND in truth?


I have told some and will eventually tell all I witness to (or as many as I can) . I try to let the Holy Ghost determine the timing.


I'm assuming you know the verses I am referring to when I do mention something scriptural.


#Do you believe that a trinitarian can be saved by worshipping God the Father as any other than Jesus Christ?

1
Yes, I do. Read Deut 6:4 That is where I get that answer. Again they see Him Differently, but same God.

#2
As far as Jesus, they worshiped Him as being God in the flesh. The Jewish Culture was to not refer to GOD. Infact in some transcripts you see letters removed from Jevoah, because they were scared to spell the whole name. With that, all the disicple saw Jesus as God in flesh, "have I been so long with you that you have not seen me?" You get what I mean? The knew He was God, but their traditions kept them from referring to Him straight out as God.

#3

The worshiping in spirit and in truth happend after the HG fell. Repentance was different then too. A animal sacrifice. Things changed after the death.

#4

I do, but remember, context,, context,context.

#5
I can not say for sure because only God knows who is saved and who is not. I mean our response to the Message is what Acts 2:38 says. I would think that since we are saved by grace through faith....I will leave it up to God. I do think Acts 2:38 is essential, but I am not God. Can't put people in the saved or unsaved catagories.

Pls allow me to jump in here and hopefully provide some insight on this issue which might be helpful....

Without disputations whatsoever, it is clear that according to the HISTORICAL record which clearly shows the ACTS(ions) OF THE APOSTLES, following the bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne located in the heavens, converts to their preaching of the Gospel of Christ were immersed in the waters of baptism "in the name of the Lord," and that this mode and formula for baptism continued in practice UNTIL it was changed by the leadership of the church of Rome at the Nicean Council of 325AD, then it would seem to me that the question MUST be -

What prompted this profound radical change which gave birth to the belief in an [I]alleged[I] triune God?

The answer, of course, is the fact that approximately 24-28 yrs AFTER the apostle Peter stood in Jerusalem and preached the first sermon at the birth of the New Testament Church, Matthew penned his gospel which contained our Lord's commandment to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..." (Mt. 28:19)

As a former trinitarian I must, with absolute candor, state that I never gave much thought to this matter, that is, UNTIL AFTER my conversion to Oneness Apotolic Pentecostalism, when it suddenly dawned upon me that Jesus NEVER commanded His chosen apostles to go forth and REPEAT the words of Matthew 28:19, instead He instructed them to perform this solemn task under the AUTHORITY OF A NAME - and that name was JESUS!

So, with respect to the question of whether or not trinitarians believe in the SAME Jesus we OAPs embrace? The answer is a resolute NO! They embrace ANOTHER JESUS, and as expressly asserted by the apostle Paul - "IF any man preach ANY other gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED." (Gal. 1:9) The Jesus that trinitarians embrace is simply ANOTHER JESUS, and according to the words of the apostle Paul "...if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached... ye might well bear with him." (II Cor. 11:4)

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

As a former trinitarian...

So, with respect to the question of whether or not trinitarians believe in the SAME Jesus we OAPs embrace? The answer is a resolute NO!

The Jesus that trinitarians embrace is simply ANOTHER JESUS, and according to the words of the apostle Paul "...if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached... ye might well bear with him." (II Cor. 11:4)

Thank you, PaPa Don.

JTULLOCK, I really don't know what else to post that would add anything to our discussion. I think this man has plainly stated, from experience, the answer to the question.

[Jack Shephard]

[/QUOTE]"...if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached... ye might well bear with him."[/I][/B] (II Cor. 11:4)[/QUOTE]

If you read (II Cor. 11) in context you will see that when it says, "if he," it is talking about being wishy washy in doctorine...You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

When it says Jesus it talking of another savior.

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

Pls allow me to jump in here and hopefully provide some insight on this issue which might be helpful....

Without disputations whatsoever, it is clear that according to the HISTORICAL record which clearly shows the ACTS(ions) OF THE APOSTLES, following the bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne located in the heavens, converts to their preaching of the Gospel of Christ were immersed in the waters of baptism "in the name of the Lord," and that this mode and formula for baptism continued in practice UNTIL it was changed by the leadership of the church of Rome at the Nicean Council of 325AD, then it would seem to me that the question MUST be -

What prompted this profound radical change which gave birth to the belief in an [i]alleged triune God?

[i]The answer, of course, is the fact that approximately 24-28 yrs AFTER the apostle Peter stood in Jerusalem and preached the first sermon at the birth of the New Testament Church, Matthew penned his gospel which contained our Lord's commandment to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..." (Mt. 28:19)

As a former trinitarian I must, with absolute candor, state that I never gave much thought to this matter, that is, UNTIL AFTER my conversion to Oneness Apotolic Pentecostalism, when it suddenly dawned upon me that Jesus NEVER commanded His chosen apostles to go forth and REPEAT the words of Matthew 28:19, instead He instructed them to perform this solemn task under the AUTHORITY OF A NAME - and that name was JESUS!

So, with respect to the question of whether or not trinitarians believe in the SAME Jesus we OAPs embrace? The answer is a resolute NO! They embrace ANOTHER JESUS, and as expressly asserted by the apostle Paul - "IF any man preach ANY other gospel unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED." (Gal. 1:9) The Jesus that trinitarians embrace is simply ANOTHER JESUS, and according to the words of the apostle Paul "...if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached... ye might well bear with him." (II Cor. 11:4)

It wasn't the leadership in ROME that changed anything at the Council of Nicea (which wasn't even held in Rome, it was held in Nicea, which is located what is today Turkey). For a former trinitarian, you really don't know much about the history of the doctrine or what the doctrine taught. Here's the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 A.D.

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic* and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the Life of the age to come. Amen."




*Meaning "universal;" it does not mean "Roman Catholic," since there was no "Roman Catholic" church before the bishops of Rome and Constantinople excommunicated each other around the 10th century.


Of course, Jesus never commanded the Apostles to repeat any words over someone when they baptized - whether the "titles" in Matthew 28:19 or the name "Jesus" (which is the same as Joshua in the Old Testament and was as common in that day as "Joe" or "Bill" are in American culture). Further, the Council at Nicea never said anything about baptism either in the titles or in the name of Jesus.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Chan

the name "Jesus" (which is the same as Joshua in the Old Testament and was as common in that day as "Joe" or "Bill" are in American culture).

Ain't no "Joe" or "Bill" in ANY culture ever been prophesied to be or claim to be the Almighty incarnate, either.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by OGIA

Thank you, PaPa Don.

JTULLOCK, I really don't know what else to post that would add anything to our discussion. I think this man has plainly stated, from experience, the answer to the question.

Also, Gents, if read any commentary on these verses is says that when Paul said any other Jesus, it is commonly seen as meaning another Gospel than that which Paul taught. Not a different Jesus altogether. Matthew Henry commentary says this....The apostle desired to preserve the Corinthians from being corrupted by the false apostles. There is but one Jesus, one Spirit, and one gospel, to be preached to them, and received by them; and why should any be prejudiced, by the devices of an adversary, against him who first taught them in faith? They should not listen to men, who, without cause, would draw them away from those who were the means of their conversion.


It also could a reference to a legalistic teaching, as per IVP New Testament Commentaries.

Originally Posted by OGIA

Ain't no "Joe" or "Bill" in ANY culture ever been prophesied to be or claim to be the Almighty incarnate, either.

Neither were any of the other people in first century Galilee that were named Jesus. What's your point?