Mooney Guns for "Secret" Meeting in Detroit?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

How many people at the Mississippi camp meeting do you think were invited to the secret meeting?

The question is, "how many knew of the so-called 'secret' meeting?" It's preventative medicine, and he used his position to make his feelings on that loud and clear.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Kim Komando

Michael, I don't think Craft was invited - although PM takes note of him at the campmeeting in his message. Would this be the same Craft that is part of 2 organizations although the UPC, and the General Board of which PM is a part of, has said this can't be done?

Yes, interesting how he is involved with both the WPF and UPCI. Good man though, so I'm sure this speaks more toward the inconsistency of the UPCI's stance than anything.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

I am a late comer to this fast moving discussion, but I do have a few things I would like to air out.

I read through enough of the posts on this thread to discover that there are some very serious differences among those who call themselves apostolic, and particularly those of the UPCI. My concern is not the UPCI, ALJC, IMA, GNCM, ABofC, etc, etc. My concern is the body of Christ and the attitudes I see prevelant among disciples of denominations.

The spirit of intolerance that I see among many runs counter to everything I have read in the Bible, except when it is talking people who are of a spirit other than Christ. Here are some things I want to respond to:

- First I want to respond to those who feel that the son of a man of God who follows in his father's pulpit has stolen or hijacked that pulpit. That is the pulpit (presumably) that God has placed him in and unless he gained that pulpit through immoral, unethical or illegal means, it was not stolen or hijacked. That pulpit does not belong to any organization except the local congregation and they can certainly take whatever action is appropriate for them.

In that vein; I have never heard any of those who complain about the way the young generation are changing address the way that the onesteppers and rigid holiness standard preachers hijacked the UPC from the early founders. As far as I can see these younger men are not trying to tell others how to preach the message they are just saying let us preach it the way the founding fathers of the UPC preached it.

- Many (like 30) years ago a group of young ministers met in an "invitation only" meeting in California. There were some very liberal men among us and some very conservative men. Among them were several presbyters. We intentionally invited presbyters because we wanted the board and others to have an accurate account of what was discussed.

Not one man there talked about leaving the UPC; there was no discussion about starting another organization; we didn't talk about changing the UPC. We only talked about how we could more effectively minister within the body of believers that we all loved. Every man there believed in Acts 2:38, though most of us sided with the PCI position of salvation by grace. Every man there believed and preached holiness, but we weren't standards focused.

Even with the precaustions we took the rumor mill had it that we were a group of compromisers who were forming another organization. We were all branded as rebels and compromisers. That brand became a self-fulfilling prophecy because today all of those men are out of the UPC.

The reason for my post is this: If I love my brother, and I am concerned about his walk with God, as I am my own, then why don't I grant him the same grace and love that Christ showed other sincere believers?

It has been my observation that many who espouse the more radical application of the message and holiness have not understood the essence of truth in either and have created more offense in the body than any other group that they would call heretic.

My conclusion is that there is something inherrently wrong with a system that produces such bitterness, backbiting and judging as this system does.

I will tell you that I am still hurt over hurting brethren who are trying to live out the faith that God has placed in their heart but who are misunderstood by those they have loved and respected. I will also confess that I am angry at the enemy who will use the message of Christ and sanctified living as a means to divide the body of Christ and cause irreperable damage to believers.

Here me saints, God is not pleased with those who would cause division among whichever side of this issue we stand. We are called to love our brethren not to judge them by the standards of men.

I've said enough this time.

POST OF THE DAY!!!

[Withdrawn]

It's amazing to me how we put aside the commandments of Christ to love one another when it comes to politicizing our agendas and destroying those who view some things differently.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by jaamez

It's amazing to me how we put aside the commandments of Christ to love one another when it comes to politicizing our agendas and destroying those who view some things differently.

You know the rebuttal here, Jaamez. Paul, telling Judaizers to mutilate themselves wasn't exactly "brotherly love." When it comes to what one believes is false doctrine, the gloves are off.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

I am a late comer to this fast moving discussion, but I do have a few things I would like to air out.

I read through enough of the posts on this thread to discover that there are some very serious differences among those who call themselves apostolic, and particularly those of the UPCI. My concern is not the UPCI, ALJC, IMA, GNCM, ABofC, etc, etc. My concern is the body of Christ and the attitudes I see prevelant among disciples of denominations.

The spirit of intolerance that I see among many runs counter to everything I have read in the Bible, except when it is talking people who are of a spirit other than Christ. Here are some things I want to respond to:

- First I want to respond to those who feel that the son of a man of God who follows in his father's pulpit has stolen or hijacked that pulpit. That is the pulpit (presumably) that God has placed him in and unless he gained that pulpit through immoral, unethical or illegal means, it was not stolen or hijacked. That pulpit does not belong to any organization except the local congregation and they can certainly take whatever action is appropriate for them.

In that vein; I have never heard any of those who complain about the way the young generation are changing address the way that the onesteppers and rigid holiness standard preachers hijacked the UPC from the early founders. As far as I can see these younger men are not trying to tell others how to preach the message they are just saying let us preach it the way the founding fathers of the UPC preached it.

- Many (like 30) years ago a group of young ministers met in an "invitation only" meeting in California. There were some very liberal men among us and some very conservative men. Among them were several presbyters. We intentionally invited presbyters because we wanted the board and others to have an accurate account of what was discussed.

Not one man there talked about leaving the UPC; there was no discussion about starting another organization; we didn't talk about changing the UPC. We only talked about how we could more effectively minister within the body of believers that we all loved. Every man there believed in Acts 2:38, though most of us sided with the PCI position of salvation by grace. Every man there believed and preached holiness, but we weren't standards focused.

Even with the precaustions we took the rumor mill had it that we were a group of compromisers who were forming another organization. We were all branded as rebels and compromisers. That brand became a self-fulfilling prophecy because today all of those men are out of the UPC.

The reason for my post is this: If I love my brother, and I am concerned about his walk with God, as I am my own, then why don't I grant him the same grace and love that Christ showed other sincere believers?

It has been my observation that many who espouse the more radical application of the message and holiness have not understood the essence of truth in either and have created more offense in the body than any other group that they would call heretic.

My conclusion is that there is something inherrently wrong with a system that produces such bitterness, backbiting and judging as this system does.

I will tell you that I am still hurt over hurting brethren who are trying to live out the faith that God has placed in their heart but who are misunderstood by those they have loved and respected. I will also confess that I am angry at the enemy who will use the message of Christ and sanctified living as a means to divide the body of Christ and cause irreparable damage to believers.

Here me saints, God is not pleased with those who would cause division among whichever side of this issue we stand. We are called to love our brethren not to judge them by the standards of men.

I've said enough this time.

Good post and good points!

[HopePreacher]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

You know the rebuttal here, Jaamez. Paul, telling Judaizers to mutilate themselves wasn't exactly "brotherly love." When it comes to what one believes is false doctrine, the gloves are off.

Yes, but Paul didn't offer to do the cutting. and remember, he was addressing the leagalists. today it seems the legalists are the ones with the knife.

[GrowingPains]

It has been my observation that many who espouse the more radical application of the message and holiness have not understood the essence of truth in either and have created more offense in the body than any other group that they would call heretic.

And I quote.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

Yes, but Paul didn't offer to do the cutting. and remember, he was addressing the leagalists. today it seems the legalists are the ones with the knife.

My point being, with matters of doctrine, inflammatory words and confrontation are expected.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

You know the rebuttal here, Jaamez. Paul, telling Judaizers to mutilate themselves wasn't exactly "brotherly love." When it comes to what one believes is false doctrine, the gloves are off.

Right... but is it really false doctrine? Is this really about essentials or technicalities? What is even being debated? Does anybody even know for sure? Or is this all just hyperbole?