Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest

[Aquila]

Growing,

So if one is cut to the heart about it being a "sin" to eat peanut butter and banna sandwhiches... is it a "sin" for them? lol No. It's just a misguided concept of sin that needs to be corrected by a thorough understanding of the Law of God.

There should be no tolerance for any form of imposed legalistic standards based on the abritrary will of man or human opinion.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Growing,

So if one is cut to the heart about it being a "sin" to eat peanut butter and banna sandwhiches... is it a "sin" for them? lol No. It's just a misguided concept of sin that needs to be corrected by a thorough understanding of the Law of God.

There should be no tolerance for any form of imposed legalistic standards based on the abritrary will of man or human opinion.

Not exactly the illustration of this point that I had in mind

I'm not advocating imposed legalistic standards -- that's my whole point. They aren't written on stony tablet, they are written, through the Spirit, on the fleshy tables of man's heart. The brother with peanut butter and banana (as silly as your example was) needs good teaching. I would ask WHY they were cut to the heart about eating PB&B sandwiches? That's the greater reason. Remember, the heart reveals the motive of the actions -- God cares about the heart!!

[SeekingOne]

What about Paul talking about not eating meat sacrificed to idols around someone that doing that (eating the meat) would cause that person to stumble? It sounds like, due to their weak faith, that to eat that meat would be sin for one person but not for another.

I am not a theologian, so don't bash me here. But it does seem that something can be sin for one person and not another.

In fact, I know there have been examples in my own life. There was a time that it would have been sin for me to wear pants. God had a time and a purpose at that time in my life. I believe I was obeying God for that time in my life.

I know someone that is certain God spoke to them that they should not watch TV, videos or DVDs for entertainment. (Educational stuff was okay.) They knew it was for them personally and did not keep their kids from watching some things at relatives homes and such.

I am hoping someone did not already bring this up. I did not see this in my reading of posts. I read references to this scripture, but not an answer to this question.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

What about Paul talking about not eating meat sacrificed to idols around someone that doing that (eating the meat) would cause that person to stumble? It sounds like, due to their weak faith, that to eat that meat would be sin for one person but not for another.

I am not a theologian, so don't bash me here. But it does seem that something can be sin for one person and not another.

In fact, I know there have been examples in my own life. There was a time that it would have been sin for me to wear pants. God had a time and a purpose at that time in my life. I believe I was obeying God for that time in my life.

I know someone that is certain God spoke to them that they should not watch TV, videos or DVDs for entertainment. (Educational stuff was okay.) They knew it was for them personally and did not keep their kids from watching some things at relative’s homes and such.

I am hoping someone did not already bring this up. I did not see this in my reading of posts. I read references to this scripture, but not an answer to this question.

I think we have to define “sin”. All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. For example, it may not be expedient at some point in your walk with God that you wear pants. Why? Perhaps that teaching brought you into a greater sense of modesty. However, our heart doesn’t determine what is or isn’t sin. Something may be improper Christian behavior, but not a “sin”. A “sin” is a Heaven or Hell issue. That’s why I feel it’s so important to define it. For the individual with a conviction against television – will they go to Hell if a spouse backslid and chose to allow one in the house? Or regarding pants, if one were wearing pants at some point would they go to Hell as long as they felt bad about it, but suddenly they’ll go to Heaven after that conviction wanes? Sin becomes relative on a sea of shifting sand if we define it like this. Sin has to have a rock solid definition. It isn’t a sin to wear pants, nor is it a sin to watch television, nor is it a sin to eat meat around a brother who would be offended. However, if one feels personally convicted not to wear pants, they will loose a measure of spiritual security and blessing if they violate their conscience. Same with one who feels abstaining from television is necessary for them. The brother who eats meat in front of a weaker brother is not exhibiting Christian love, but he will not loose his soul over it. We’re talking “sin”. Sin is serious. It’s not defined by what your or I feel or think. It’s sin. Period. No room for wavering or redefining.

Here’s a break down of how I see it, maybe it will help. There are different levels of convictions that a Christian might have.

- Personal Convictions: For example abstaining from meats or not celebrating certain holidays. (Violations of these convictions are not sin.)
- Church Convictions: For example various common sense standards of modesty television, the wearing of jewelry, etc. (Violation of these convictions are not sin.)
- Biblical Convictions Predicated Upon Commandments: Convictions regarding clear commands of Scripture (Idolatry, adultery, lying, stealing, etc. – violations of these convictions are indeed “sin”.)

The only convictions that will have a factor in one’s eternal destiny are those specifically addressed biblically. Violation of church convictions, or traditions, will not land one in Hell. Even if one is against eating pork but in order to survive they had to eat port, they will not loose their soul. It’s a personal conviction and doesn’t have eternal consequences.

Sin can only be “sin” if it clearly breaks a commandment of God. Remember, a “sin” is a Heaven or Hell issue. That’s why it’s clearly defined as a breaking of the Law of God. One can violate personal convictions or church convictions and miss a measure of blessing… but they will not loose their soul.

This, in my opinion, is one of the most perplexing and perhaps one of the most serious issues in modern Pentecost. Nobody knows what sin is or isn’t because we’re all measuring it by what we or a pastor thinks. There isn’t any solid ground. There are people who don’t believe in God because the “confusion” regarding sin is astounding from church to church. How can watching television be a sin in one church and not in another? How can wedding bands be a sin in one church and not another? This is confusion and a serious lack of understanding the Law of God. Here is a list of what God clearly commands:

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

The general spirit of the Law of God is to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. If you love God and your neighbor from a pure heart and with pure motives keeping the Law will not be a difficult endeavor. And here is where the issue of being “perfect” exists. Keeping the above commandments insures that one is living a life completely above sin. You can have victory over sin. You can live a sinless life before God. The list isn’t that difficult if you love God and your neighbor. However, if one’s love for God and/or neighbor is non-existent… keeping the Law will be near impossible.

If you’re not an idolater, if you reverence the name of the Lord your God, if you’ve entered into his rest, if you honor your mother and father, don’t take the life of or harm others, you are faithful to your spouse, you don’t take what doesn’t belong to you, you tell the truth, and you are thankful for what you have and aren’t obsessed with having that which belongs to your neighbor… you’re living above sin.

That’s how I see it after much prayer and study.

[GrowingPains]

Sorry, Aquila, I usually agree with you on your postings. Not here. The legalists and Pharisees want a "sin chart" and list of official sins. We ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, being sensitive to the Holy Ghost and honest before God. His law is written on the tables of our heart (same heart that is "deceitfully wicked"... love the irony of the Bible).
We don't cross off the 10 Commandments and kick back with our feet up. We pursue God, not in fear of sinning, but in earnest passion of wanting to please him. Disobedience to God is a sin. Do you agree? So, if God prompts us to do something and we don't, we've sinned against God. His correction could be as severe as Saul or hard love like Jonah.

[CAD/JPY]

This is turning into a great discussion. Aquila, I can see your points on the 10 commandments, and as intriguing as it would be to reference only that as sin... I don't know how I can get my head around Sis. Jones.

Sis. Jones truly believes she will commit a sin if she wears pants. Now, lets assume that for God, a woman wearing pants is not a sin. However, Sis. Jones truly believes it is a sin... yet she proceeds to wear pants! Thus in her heart, she has made a decision to commit what she believes is a sin before God.

Even if God says "A woman wearing pants is not sin and Mrs. Jones you did not sin by simply wearing a pair of pants". How can it not be sin for Mrs. Jones to decide in her heart to transgress what she believes is a Law of God??? Would not this bring us back to the first commandment of Love the Lord your God, with all your soul, mind, strength, AND HEART?

This is the scenario that I am having difficulty with....

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Sorry, Aquila, I usually agree with you on your postings. Not here. The legalists and Pharisees want a "sin chart" and list of official sins. We ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, being sensitive to the Holy Ghost and honest before God. His law is written on the tables of our heart (same heart that is "deceitfully wicked"... love the irony of the Bible).
We don't cross off the 10 Commandments and kick back with our feet up. We pursue God, not in fear of sinning, but in earnest passion of wanting to please him. Disobedience to God is a sin. Do you agree? So, if God prompts us to do something and we don't, we've sinned against God. His correction could be as severe as Saul or hard love like Jonah.

I agree with this.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Sorry, Aquila, I usually agree with you on your postings. Not here. The legalists and Pharisees want a "sin chart" and list of official sins. We ought to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, being sensitive to the Holy Ghost and honest before God. His law is written on the tables of our heart (same heart that is "deceitfully wicked"... love the irony of the Bible).
We don't cross off the 10 Commandments and kick back with our feet up. We pursue God, not in fear of sinning, but in earnest passion of wanting to please him. Disobedience to God is a sin. Do you agree? So, if God prompts us to do something and we don't, we've sinned against God. His correction could be as severe as Saul or hard love like Jonah.

Notice something I think we miss. He has written HIS LAW upon our hearts. Meaning through the Holy Ghost he has given us a desire to obey his Law. Not that he writes different laws on different hearts. So yes, you’re right. We obey him and love him and we obey out of love. However, that doesn’t mean that God tells a person to do something like wear only long sleeves and doesn’t tell their brother the same… only to turn around and condemn the brother he told for wearing short sleeves and not the brother who’s been wearing them all along. If a man tells me, “God told me not to eat bagels.” I know instantly that God never told him that. lol If a woman tells me “God told me not to wear pants.” I’ll ask, “Do you believe it’s a sin to wear pants? Will pants send a person to Hell?” If she answers, “No, pants aren’t a sin; I just feel more modest in a skirt.”, perhaps she’s heard from God. If she says, “Yes, pants are a sin.” I know she’s not heard from God. The Bible doesn’t condemn people for wearing certain styles of clothing. Just as God wouldn’t condemn a man for wearing short sleeves. The general rule of thumb is modesty. After all… if pants are a sin for women… then pants would be sin for men. Both have goodies to cover. And any honest woman will admit that you can see a man’s form in pants and many women do check it out.

Hey, that brings up an interesting point. If I (being a man) believed that pants were immodest in my heart… should I wear a skirt? lol

Also, keep in mind... we're not talking about disobeying specific orders regarding God's direct commands such as "go here and do this". We're talking about "standards". Yes... God might command an action and rebellion from that action would be a sin. However, God doesn't say, "Long sleeves are okay for you and sin for another." That's just too relative.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by CAD/JPY

This is turning into a great discussion. Aquila, I can see your points on the 10 commandments, and as intriguing as it would be to reference only that as sin... I don't know how I can get my head around Sis. Jones.

Sis. Jones truly believes she will commit a sin if she wears pants. Now, lets assume that for God, a woman wearing pants is not a sin. However, Sis. Jones truly believes it is a sin... yet she proceeds to wear pants! Thus in her heart, she has made a decision to commit what she believes is a sin before God.

Even if God says "A woman wearing pants is not sin and Mrs. Jones you did not sin by simply wearing a pair of pants". How can it not be sin for Mrs. Jones to decide in her heart to transgress what she believes is a Law of God??? Would not this bring us back to the first commandment of Love the Lord your God, with all your soul, mind, strength, AND HEART?

This is the scenario that I am having difficulty with....

Good stuff CAD.

I’d have to ask, why Sis. Jones believes she’s sinning before God by wearing pants? Did someone along the way “add” to the Word of God? What about Sis. Smith? She was raised in an Apostolic church where wearing pants isn’t considered a sin. Dose God judge sisters Jones and Smith by different standards? Will he refuse to judge them impartially and equally or will God hold Sister Jones to an unbiblical standard based on her own heart’s personal feelings? Does sin shift from being sin from one church or person to another? If so, can your children say, “Well dad, that’s a sin for you… but not for me.”? When it comes to sin sisters Smith and Jones have no say… sin is sin. One may BELIEVE that something is a sin and discover upon thorough study of the Bible or perhaps even in Heaven that it wasn’t. David once indicated that if our hearts condemn us there is one greater than our hearts. One’s own heart can condemn them over something done that is now under the blood… and it can also condemn them over something that isn’t against God. What if a Trinitarian sincerely believes that Oneness is a heresy, does their faith make believing in Oneness a sin for them? If they go against what they believe to be the revealed will of God and be baptized in Jesus name, will they have sinned? I’m a little shocked at how relative and arbitrary we’ve become when defining sin. Sin is a sin for one person but not another? God has different rules for everyone based on the individual? It’s all shifting sands of uncertainty. If your son says, “Dad, is wearing shorts a sin?” Do you say, “Maybe. What do you think?” Or do you say, “No son, I don’t believe it’s a sin. However, shorts can be immodest so as a Christian discipline we don’t wear them.”? Or one could say, “No, shorts aren’t a sin son – just keep them modest.” I find it interesting that we’ve diluted the definition of sin to fit the individual. Why? I suspect that it’s to appease the legalists among us. Bro. Jones believes not wearing a head covering is sin. Bro. Smith doesn’t. So, instead of confronting false teaching Bro. Smith says, “Well, that’s a sin for Bro. Jones and his church but not us.” In doing this we take the shift from the Word of God and the revealed Law of God to what individuals think. We descend into writing our own rules based on personal feelings.

If one loves the Lord their God with all their heart, will they not seek out his Word? If they choose not to wear pants because they believe it’s more modest to wear long skirts they are following Christian principles and discipline… but they go beyond the Word of God to label women wearing pants a sin.

Remember “sin” is a Heaven or Hell issue. When we stand before God he’s not going to say, “Hmmm. Geeeee, what do you think? How do you feel about this?” No. God will judge according to His Holiness. And His Holiness is revealed in the Law of the LORD.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Notice something I think we miss. He has written HIS LAW upon our hearts. Meaning through the Holy Ghost he has given us a desire to obey his Law. Not that he writes different laws on different hearts. So yes, you’re right. We obey him and love him and we obey out of love. However, that doesn’t mean that God tells a person to do something like wear only long sleeves and doesn’t tell their brother the same… only to turn around and condemn the brother he told for wearing short sleeves and not the brother who’s been wearing them all along. If a man tells me, “God told me not to eat bagels.” I know instantly that God never told him that. lol If a woman tells me “God told me not to wear pants.” I’ll ask, “Do you believe it’s a sin to wear pants? Will pants send a person to Hell?” If she answers, “No, pants aren’t a sin; I just feel more modest in a skirt.”, perhaps she’s heard from God. If she says, “Yes, pants are a sin.” I know she’s not heard from God. The Bible doesn’t condemn people for wearing certain styles of clothing. Just as God wouldn’t condemn a man for wearing short sleeves. The general rule of thumb is modesty. After all… if pants are a sin for women… then pants would be sin for men. Both have goodies to cover. And any honest woman will admit that you can see a man’s form in pants and many women do check it out.

Hey, that brings up an interesting point. If I (being a man) believed that pants were immodest in my heart… should I wear a skirt? lol

Also, keep in mind... we're not talking about disobeying specific orders regarding God's direct commands such as "go here and do this". We're talking about "standards". Yes... God might command an action and rebellion from that action would be a sin. However, God doesn't say, "Long sleeves are okay for you and sin for another." That's just too relative.

Whoa, step away from the myopic view of standards for 10 seconds and see this applies in such greater measures than these. Surely God speaks to us with more gravity than just what we choose to wear in the morning (though I believe the Holy Spirit will speak to us there too). This applies with the Holy Ghost checking us, confirmed by witnesses, prophetic word, etc... and us refusing to obey God's voice (about where we should go, a situation we are handling in our life, a relationship, etc).

We do a disservice to God to discuss harmartiology within the tiny confinds as "standards."

Additionally, most would argue on this forum the whole point of standards is for God to lead us through the process of how we present ourselves, our bodies -- what we should watch, read, etc... and not necessarily dogmatized law chiseled out that we carry away. That's the whole point. Not for one man to bypass the process of justification by having everyone conform to rules, but have the grace of God working into our lives to bring us to good works and maturity. God still speaks, and he says a whole lot more than reciting the Mosaic Law.