Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

No, I'm referring to the transition. Many die during this. Many casualties. I think even without the church's "rules", mommy and daddy have a huge role to play with household "standards" that they create as a home, and daddy does as the priest of the home.

It's the transition though that reveals fully the shallowness of what they thought was a deep relationship (not all, but many). They also begin to question everything from the existence in God to the credibility of their own family to have "been wrong this whole time." Their world is topsy-turvy. As a result, I've noticed many youth groups going through this not turn toward holiness, but turn to extreme carnality, flaunting their new liberties like a parade and creating a culture in the church that is not what the decision intended.

This is typical of most young people growing up in legalistic churches. I am hearing stories from even liberal UPC and ALJC churches of youth who have no hope in anything. They feel like they are hellbound no matter what they do so why try anyway. As a former youth pastor in a UPC church I have youth contact me with their hopelessness frequently. This is the opposite of what the gospel should bring to the hearts of young people.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

This is typical of most young people growing up in legalistic churches. I am hearing stories from even liberal UPC and ALJC churches of youth who have no hope in anything. They feel like they are hellbound no matter what they do so why try anyway. As a former youth pastor in a UPC church I have youth contact me with their hopelessness frequently. This is the opposite of what the gospel should bring to the hearts of young people.

Delta, sorry bud, but you thrive at blanket generalities. It's not enough to throw all cons under the bus, you seem to shoot for the entire UPC and ALJC. Remember that young people are often times kids... that makes a huge difference as they experiment with authority and impositions in their life. Many teenagers struggle and many also thrive. Hopefully your counsel is helping them thrive.

Feel like they're hellbound? What are they doing that makes them feel so unsure of their salvation? Maybe a healthy feeling of conviction of part of that "fear and trembling" and making our "calling and election sure."

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Delta, sorry bud, but you thrive at blanket generalities. It's not enough to throw all cons under the bus, you seem to shoot for the entire UPC and ALJC. Remember that young people are often times kids... that makes a huge difference as they experiment with authority and impositions in their life. Many teenagers struggle and many also thrive. Hopefully your counsel is helping them thrive.

Feel like they're hellbound? What are they doing that makes them feel so unsure of their salvation? Maybe a healthy feeling of conviction of part of that "fear and trembling" and making our "calling and election sure."

My experience is from the UPC. I mention ALJC because many view them as more liberal on standards and hard line preaching than the UPC.

You are right that with the teens they are full of drama and everyday can hold a lifetime of emotions. Still, this pattern is not just with young people. We are dealing constantly with people who are seriously damaged by their understanding. Back when I was UPC we went through a period of time in our church that wasn't so bad but the culture was such that people felt like they couldn't make it. Even though the preacher was closer to the gospel than ever there was still that culture that folks constantly struggled. It was all about the moves at the altar and hype and speaking in tongues and the truth is that I can't find anyone who was changed.

I had a young man who had received the "Holy Ghost" about 12 years ago during one of our great revivals tell me that nothing ever upset him more than what happened at our altar service. He then proceeded to tell me how he just prayed because everyone swoops in and lays hands on you and that they are so emotional that you just feel that for their benefit you have to just go through with it and "get the Holy Ghost". This guy is now a true born again Christian and is ministering to others. He feels like Pentecostalism is mind control and emotionalism.

I talk with others who have left, educated intelligent people, who were raised in the UPC and loved Acts 2:38 and believed it just like I did. I hear them talk often about how they aren't sure that all that stuff was even of God and most will hesitate from speaking in tongues or anything of that nature because they don't to be chasing after something that might not really be God. These are not backsliden people but ministers of the Gospel and strong Christian leaders.

I realize it might seem like generalizing but I came from a very general UPC church. My pastor was on the board in Mississippi for many years, I have been to youth camp and camp meetings all my life. I have associated with many Pentecostals from all over the USA and I have a fairly good knowledge of the movement.

My own sister has admitted to me that out of her entire graduating class at CLC of around 35 - 40 students there might be 4 who are still associated with any apostolic group.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Feel like they're hellbound? What are they doing that makes them feel so unsure of their salvation? Maybe a healthy feeling of conviction of part of that "fear and trembling" and making our "calling and election sure."

Some of them I know are living for God, but those they have known all their lives still nag at them they are going to hell because they left "God (their church)" and because they respect those people they are insecure.

Some of them were "forced" out of the church because they were considered a bad influence on other kids. Their parents were told to get them out of town, two I know of were 13 from one family and 15 in from another family. Do you think they grew up wanting to go to church after that??? The answer is "no." If that is the love of God, then God doesn't love them so why bother trying to be a Christian.

I am sorry, but some of these legalistic churches lack the love of Jesus, and to me that means Jesus just ain't there like He should be. The leadership have replaced Jesus with what they make up to be Jesus, twisting scriptures to fit their "holiness" standards and kicking out those that don't "match up."

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Delta, sorry bud, but you thrive at blanket generalities. It's not enough to throw all cons under the bus, you seem to shoot for the entire UPC and ALJC. Remember that young people are often times kids... that makes a huge difference as they experiment with authority and impositions in their life. Many teenagers struggle and many also thrive. Hopefully your counsel is helping them thrive.

Feel like they're hellbound? What are they doing that makes them feel so unsure of their salvation? Maybe a healthy feeling of conviction of part of that "fear and trembling" and making our "calling and election sure."

AMEN!

However... lol

If a teenager feels like they are hellbound for wanting to wear a pair of shorts, short sleeves, or a little facial hair... WOE unto that church should the weight of that legalism crush the child's faith.

If a young person feels conviction... it should be relating to actual SIN not some unfounded, arbritrary, and unscriptural man made legalistic rule.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Aquila

AMEN!

However... lol

If a teenager feels like they are hellbound for wanting to wear a pair of shorts, short sleeves, or a little facial hair... WOE unto that church should the weight of that legalism crush the child's faith.

If a young person feels conviction... it should be relating to actual SIN not some unfounded, arbritrary, and unscriptural man made legalistic rule.

I agree. But let me clarify: my daughter doesn't wear short skirts, she doesn't wear swimsuits, and she doesn't cuss. We don't have scripture and verse, but I'm her daddy and raising her up the best I can. Her rebellion of these things, if they are taught in love, is going to be something that she will give account for. I don't tell my daughter she's going to hell, but we are training her how to live in a dark world, and how to please Jesus.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

I agree. But let me clarify: my daughter doesn't wear short skirts, she doesn't wear swimsuits, and she doesn't cuss. We don't have scripture and verse, but I'm her daddy and raising her up the best I can. Her rebellion of these things, if they are taught in love, is going to be something that she will give account for. I don't tell my daughter she's going to hell, but we are training her how to live in a dark world, and how to please Jesus.

Principles of Christian modesty aren't something I challenge. I too believe that Christians should be modest. However, we're talking about churches that teach if you wear side burns you'll burn. If a teenage boy wants short sleeves some will tell him his got a "sinful heart". I was told I had a "sinful heart" for wanting to wear shorts during a heat wave. The shorts I wanted to wear were rather long, they hit me just below the knee. In fact, they were just as long as some of the skirts the ladies wear. I was really hurt back then. I didn't have a sinful heart, I just wanted to wear something loose and cool that would allow air to hit my legs.

Add these kinds of things to the very REAL struggles teenagers have like trying to grow up and establish independence, fitting in, hormones, and it becomes evident that legalistic churches are only stacking the deck against them.