The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

You have been listening too much to Paula White, Steve Munsey, and ...

LOL, Really....Paula White makes my skin crawl. I cant stand those long fingernails pointing at the screen and her saying "I have a Woooord for YOU." Vomit. And Munsey is just to weird for words. You forgot Tilton with "vow a vow" I saw him not long ago on TV.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Well....let's start by examining what these scriptures DON'T say:

A. They do not say anything about MONEY
B. They do not say anything about TITHING

What they do is advocate some form of support to those who labor in the Gospel...I personally do not know ANYONE who is a true christian who would not want to help support the ministry.

Let's not forget verse 11 either, where Paul basically says he would rather "Put up with anything" then be an obsticle to the Good News"

Bottom line (Coming from a minister mind you); is that our AMERICANIZED way of "doing Church" is FAR different then in the Apostles day. With large buildings, expensive programs etc., etc., - they often do exactly the opposite of what Paul was talking about in this verse.

I don't think our brother on here was misrepresenting anything, nor did he say EVERY minister - I did not see any broad brushing going on here... it is a fact that not all pastors are choosen of the Good Shepherd - but are hirlings - that's not a stretch to say....it's a fact.

This is true that it does not say money or tithe. However clearly those that are working full time in the gospel do need support.

The main thing though that I believe is being over looked in the first post and the part I really agree with is the emphasis on a Pastor to be the one and only man to call when there is a need. Some pastors do have to work. Some pastors might be out of town. We need to realize that if you are a Holy Ghost filled saint you have the anointing.

Every saint is called to be a priest unto God and therefore be a minister (servant). We need to train the saints, the body and encourage the to be ministers. That does not mean necessarily being a pastor or even a pulpit preacher...which I think we have more than enough but far less than enough street preachers.

but sadly my experience in Christiandom is you have two classes, the ministers and the sheeple.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

This is true that it does not say money or tithe. However clearly those that are working full time in the gospel do need support.

The main thing though that I believe is being over looked in the first post and the part I really agree with is the emphasis on a Pastor to be the one and only man to call when there is a need. Some pastors do have to work. Some pastors might be out of town. We need to realize that if you are a Holy Ghost filled saint you have the anointing.

Every saint is called to be a priest unto God and therefore be a minister (servant). We need to train the saints, the body and encourage the to be ministers. That does not mean necessarily being a pastor or even a pulpit preacher...which I think we have more than enough but far less than enough street preachers.

but sadly my experience in Christiandom is you have two classes, the ministers and the sheeple.

LOL. Never heard that before but I am going to use it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by U376977

LOL. Never heard that before but I am going to use it.

Glad I can be of service :-)

[Coffee99]

First, let me say I've met many pastors that I thought were controlling or with whom I did not agree. It's not a habit of mine to just give a pass because someone is a pastor.

That said, the vast, vast majority of pastors I have known, including some in my family, have been more like that shown in Elder Epley's post. I've seen them go out in all kinds of weather to help someone in need, leave family celebrations to take care of an "urgent" situation with someone, carry all kinds of food, school clothes, school supplies, etc. to those who were going through hard times, get on a plane and fly somewhere to comfort the family of a church member who had been killed while on vacation, and a 1000 other things to help someone in their church. For a true pastor, this seems to be their way.

It always irritates me that we expect pastors to be superheros in a cape and mask. We want them to not depend on the church for their livlihood, work full-time to support themselves, be the perfect example as a father, husband and citizen, and be available to the members of the church 24/7. Doesn't work that way.

I dare say very very very very few of us could come close to the standard we demand of pastors. And then, we get angry when they fail to perform as expected.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]

........................

Stephanas,


Many pastors resort to the following scripture for financial support, but its highly unlikely this scripture solely directs financial support to pastors, due to the following reasons:

Galatians 6:6
Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor


1)The "his instructor" within Galatians 6:6 doesn't refer exclusively to pastors, but could also be directed to local teachers of the gospel (see Acts 13:1 or Acts 15:35). If you're going to utilize Galatians 6:6 to justify pastoral salary, salaries should also be issued to local teachers and not pastors alone. How do you like them apples?


2) To share "all good things" doesn't define as continual provision. Remember, early bible churches were poor. It's absurd to think Paul would have commanded these poor churches to full-time salary one or all church elders. In reference to sharing all things, it defines as periodically sharing beneficial items (e.g. food, clothing, etc.). Extracting the validation of pastoral salaries from Galatians 6:6 is pure assumption, in the least! Once again, if this scripture validates pastoral salaries, it also validates additional salaries to all church teachers, etc.


The scripture below is referring to those who are "sent out." If you disagree, please post your rebuttal with scripture enforcing your belief. Remember, elders were stationed at one location while apostles traveled abroad preaching the gospel


1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel


In regards to:

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.


Now, again, the church at Ephesus couldn't support a pastor, much-less the elders/pastors which were already appointed, prior to Paul's epistle. You indicated all elders are worthy of double honor? The scripture does indicate that "all" the elders who rule well were to receive double honor. Are you stating all elders/pastors should have a salary? Are you claiming the scripture interprets encourages full-time salary for pastor/elders? If yes, how many churches are you aware that practice this example towhich you claim is biblical?

During Paul's temporary 3 year stay at Ephesus, Paul stated he labored with his hands to provide for his necessities. Through these actions, Paul established a pattern for elders/pastors, which was hard labor with one’s hands to provide for oneself and others (Acts 20:33-35). Its difficult to believe Paul would have violated his example by demanding churches to pay a full-time salary for each elder/pastor/teacher! Also, for the record, I do believe in monetary support for our pastors. However, they should also follow Paul's example and not remain financially dependent on a group of people.

[EA]

This is such a load of garbage.

The overwhelming majority of pastors I know work a secular job, plus pastor the church full time.

The entire premise of this thread is built around megachurch pastors, of which there are very few.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This is such a load of garbage.

The overwhelming majority of pastors I know work a secular job, plus pastor the church full time.

The entire premise of this thread is built around megachurch pastors, of which there are very few.

All of the small (50ish members or less) churches I've gone to have had full time pastors who have not held a secular job. None of these have been Apostolic, if that matters.

Edited to add the one Apostolic church I have attended. lol That pastor did work a full time job, but the church was a home mission plant and his intention was to quit working within 5 years.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

This is such a load of garbage.

The overwhelming majority of pastors I know work a secular job, plus pastor the church full time.

The entire premise of this thread is built around megachurch pastors, of which there are very few.

I think you may be mistaken. I remember the time that we worked hard in a home mission church, working secular jobs to support it longing for the day it would be able to support us. When the day came that the church could support us then the saints/board members resented everything we owned and the money we made...and now I am content to NEVER let a church support me so they do not feel they have the right to control me and my spending habits.

The blackmail/emotional blackmail we sufferrred under threats of stopping tithe paying if we had drums in the church, or hired a Minister of Music. It is crippling to the work of God.

Blessings, Rhoni

[KWSS1976]

Rhoni I could not have said it better thats why I don't tithe and ask nothing of the church as far as money and I don't care what they do with the money cause ain't none of it mine that they are spending..