Emergents Thank WeDeclare Crowd

[KWSS1976]

Yea would not want to look like the "World"..LOL

By the way this is my next wife Stevie just does not know it yet...

[Kim Komando]

Edward, the reality is these men have compromised. There is no doubt that the Tulsa 8 are chuckling to themselves saying "we told you so". To the WPFs credit they expressed their gripes based on the manual and the resolution process. What the Fantastic 10 is proposing - from an official adaptation to their view of the New Birth to the elimination to staples in the Holiness article of 1954 to setting the precedent to using the internet as a platform to political activism and speaking out against their peers and leaders requires the abandonment of the manual and the writing of a new one. There is chatter that a resolution along these lines may be sprung next week at conference. Which makes this power play more suspicious.

[CAD/JPY]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Having genuine friends in both camps and being a longtime Apostolic minister and professional interpreter of the law (attorney) gives me an uncommon perspective on WeDeclare.

Although I am somewhat suspect of the motives of the original post, and personally agree with Rodney Shaw there are no emergents within the UPCI, I too agree there is much good in this declaration. Unfortunately there is also one fatal flaw.

First the good. The first three items are foundational, if you don’t believe and follow them you have no business being in an organization such as the UPCI. And the conclusion that Apostolic Distinctives should be left in the hands of the local ministry is wonderful. This is one of the unheralded but main attractions many men had for the WPF, Decentralization of the organization and empowering the local pastor.

They also have joined the 21st century by no longer fighting technology. The former Luddite position has done irreparable harm to the movement’s credibility in times past. This is a giant leap forward toward a moderate and reasonable position and as has pointed out should be applauded.

But, as mentioned the document does have a fatal flaw making in internally inconsistent.

The stated position in items four and five take one mitzvah of the 613 in the Old Testament and one hermetically illegitimate understanding of a single passage in a pastoral epistle and elevate them to a position far above what they were ever intended to be.

Nevertheless, regardless of how they are interpreted there can only be two approaches, they are either Apostolic Distinctives or they are Salvific and therefore in and of themselves necessary to avoid hell.

I believe the first view to the majority view within the UPCI and as such they should honor their own declaration and leave it to the auspices of the local pastor. But for the few who actually believe them to be salvific you do violence to your own Item three for they are nowhere mentioned in either John 3 or Acts 2.

It is the epitome of salvation by works. To place women wearing pants or trimming split ends on par with repentance, being buried in His Holy Name, and filled with His Holy Spirit is blasphemy pure and simple. It cheapens the blood of Calvary, the suffering of the Cross, violates the very core understanding of Grace.

This is its fatal flaw. If you believe in salvation by works you don’t have New Testament salvation. If you believe them to be Apostolic Distinctives then leave their enforcement to the local pastor.

EXCELLENT POST! Thank you. And that is from one of the few emerging ministers in the UPCI...

[CAD/JPY]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Any man who contiues to see his sheep eaten by wolves or falling off cliffs that refuses to start building a fence to protect them is a fool and a sad excuse for a shepherd.

Many rules are overboard. That doesn't mean that they are not helpful for saints who are not mature enough to make good decisions. Baby gates are a pain to adults who have to constantly step over them, but they are worth the hassle when they keep your kid from falling down the steps right?

On the subject of "Babes in Christ" I feel this point needs to be made. The majority of people we refer to as babes, are adults in actual life. We can't just give them a baby gate.... WITHOUT AN EXPLANATION. Even a baby is taught why the gate is there...

And yes, I agree there should be gates. There needs to be fences. What I believe we have done as a conservative apostolic movement is not to be CONTENT with simply the Word of God that defines sin as sin. But rather, in good conscience, we cry danger... even when the messenger is barely on the horizon, and the sun is in our eyes. And that is fine, we are being cautious, but then it becomes clearer the messenger is of little consequence... But unfortunately people refuse to accept their cry of danger was wrong... and rally the troops to kill the messenger!

[Aquila]

Non of it is about standards, principles, or beliefs... it's all about internal politics and power plays.

[KWSS1976]

Yall need to see if yall can get this turned into a soap opera and put it on TV that would be awsome...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Having genuine friends in both camps and being a longtime Apostolic minister and professional interpreter of the law (attorney) gives me an uncommon perspective on WeDeclare.

Although I am somewhat suspect of the motives of the original post, and personally agree with Rodney Shaw there are no emergents within the UPCI, I too agree there is much good in this declaration. Unfortunately there is also one fatal flaw.

First the good. The first three items are foundational, if you don’t believe and follow them you have no business being in an organization such as the UPCI. And the conclusion that Apostolic Distinctives should be left in the hands of the local ministry is wonderful. This is one of the unheralded but main attractions many men had for the WPF, Decentralization of the organization and empowering the local pastor.

They also have joined the 21st century by no longer fighting technology. The former Luddite position has done irreparable harm to the movement’s credibility in times past. This is a giant leap forward toward a moderate and reasonable position and as has pointed out should be applauded.

But, as mentioned the document does have a fatal flaw making in internally inconsistent.

The stated position in items four and five take one mitzvah of the 613 in the Old Testament and one hermetically illegitimate understanding of a single passage in a pastoral epistle and elevate them to a position far above what they were ever intended to be.

Nevertheless, regardless of how they are interpreted there can only be two approaches, they are either Apostolic Distinctives or they are Salvific and therefore in and of themselves necessary to avoid hell.

I believe the first view to the majority view within the UPCI and as such they should honor their own declaration and leave it to the auspices of the local pastor. But for the few who actually believe them to be salvific you do violence to your own Item three for they are nowhere mentioned in either John 3 or Acts 2.

It is the epitome of salvation by works. To place women wearing pants or trimming split ends on par with repentance, being buried in His Holy Name, and filled with His Holy Spirit is blasphemy pure and simple. It cheapens the blood of Calvary, the suffering of the Cross, violates the very core understanding of Grace.

This is its fatal flaw. If you believe in salvation by works you don’t have New Testament salvation. If you believe them to be Apostolic Distinctives then leave their enforcement to the local pastor.

You're a wise man, James.

The best thing about the WeDeclare site is the parchment paper and the title of the site. But instead of reading something along the lines of the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights of the Constitution, we find something not in line with the spirit of individual freedoms and unity but unbiblical boundary setting and divisiveness. My suggestion...enjoy the aesthetics but don't read the words.

[yisraelm]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Yall need to see if yall can get this turned into a soap opera and put it on TV that would be awsome...

Not everything is a joke. I believe the Scripture says that the thought of foolishness is sin in Proverbs.

[rgcraig]

Great post James!

[Apocrypha]

so who are the detroit guys, i keep hearing about them in a round about way, but no one puts a name to whos leading the mod-lib push that keeps getting hinted to on here.