DKB: The Leader

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We are talking about a man that is not here to defend himself and I think it's just plain gossip.

Sharing negative experiences or concerns should be left within our individual families and with close friends. That is, if you have a friend that you feel you can trust to share things with. JMHO.

I didn't defend DB on the issue of dying the hair using Matthew 5:36. I felt it was taken out of context, in that, it speaks of not having control over things. You do have control over what color you can dye your hair. I think we can differ on scripture, but I wouldn't bash his character.

If Sister Alvear had a bad experience, she should keep that to herself. Mainly, because the whole story wasn't told and DB isn't here to defend his actions or explain why he acted like he did. Even if he was wrong, he should have been given the opportunity to defend himself.

Now PO, surely you know that verse to the song is not published nor honored here? I also wish that were the case, but it is not.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I am crushed that I let my carnal emotions get away from me and not think that I was violating one of the most beautiful passages on love when dealing with our elder brothers and sisters in Christ!!! - I Tim 5:1-2!

I probably made you have a horrible day and I can't tell you how that makes me feel!! Sorry is just not an adequate word - it's not enough, Sister Alvear!

It's one of those instances where you wish your words or actions were a slate and that you had an eraser in hand!!!

Goodness, I'm so glad that God doesn't treat us that way when He's upset with something we have said or done!

Again, I am sorry, Sister Alvear!

Blessing and love to you as well!!

[Sister Alvear]

I should not have posted...did so without thinking...

Hope all is well...love you and am praying for you. Please do remember us in your prayers.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

****Sorry I am going to hijack his thread for a minute-****

Sister Alvear I am so excited about you coming and being with us in February!

Yay! I love you! Our church is going to love you too! I hope it all works out for sure-I hope you don't mind me saying something!



*hugs!*

love you too and am excited about being there also...we have been in some mighty sweet services this trip home. This is the longest we have stayed in the states for years...ha..when our trip is finished we will have been here a little over 2 months! Then we have a booked up schedule in Brazil and back to the states the last of January...Getting around in my old age...ha...love you folks.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I should not have posted...did so without thinking...

Hope all is well...love you and am praying for you. Please do remember us in your prayers.

Sister Alvear,
I want to make sure that you noticed rrford came in on this a little later and bumped a post I made before we settled this between us.

Just wanting to make sure you didn't think I brought up this subject again.

God bless,

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I should not have posted...did so without thinking...

Hope all is well...love you and am praying for you. Please do remember us in your prayers.

I dunno, Sister A. Your perspective is important because you are an OP believer who is on the "outside" of the UPC.

There has been a long history of conflict between the UPC on "those on the outside." Fortunately, there has also been a history of positive engagements. But to learn from their action the various players do need feedback.

Where I think you :erred" was those years ago when you simply chose to ignore the "bad taste" that the encounter had left for you. A much younger DKB could have probably benefited from some push back at the time. My own recollections of that "younger DKB was that he bristled easily and hadn't developed a very thick skin yet.

(I once suggested to him that he include more Unitarian historical sources in some of his discussion on the Trinitarian controversies. Being the oldest and largest "non-trinitarian" religious body for most of the past 300 years or so, they can be an excellent source of information on how Trinitarian doctrine has developed since the Protestant Reformation. His response was to essentially give me a "raspberry" in front of a room full of fellow ministers. I took it in stride and had even expected it - though he did bounce back and say some very nice things. Going in, folks that knew him had warned me he could be "thin skinned.")

I think he has matured nicely and I respect him highly, but he's still a human being and like the rest of humanity, he can only benefit from some well intentioned criticism.

You did nothing wrong, IMHO.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I dunno, Sister A. Your perspective is important because you are an OP believer who is on the "outside" of the UPC.

There has been a long history of conflict between the UPC on "those on the outside." Fortunately, there has also been a history of positive engagements. But to learn from their action the various players do need feedback.

Where I think you :erred" was those years ago when you simply chose to ignore the "bad taste" that the encounter had left for you. A much younger DKB could have probably benefited from some push back at the time. My own recollections of that "younger DKB was that he bristled easily and hadn't developed a very thick skin yet.

(I once suggested to him that he include more Unitarian historical sources in some of his discussion on the Trinitarian controversies. Being the oldest and largest "non-trinitarian" religious body for most of the past 300 years or so, they can be an excellent source of information on how Trinitarian doctrine has developed since the Protestant Reformation. His response was to essentially give me a "raspberry" in front of a room full of fellow ministers. I took it in stride and had even expected it - though he did bounce back and say some very nice things. Going in, folks that knew him had warned me he could be "thin skinned.")

I think he has matured nicely and I respect him highly, but he's still a human being and like the rest of humanity, he can only benefit from some well intentioned criticism.

You did nothing wrong, IMHO.

Learning to listen to both sides of a story is important and wise. I've been on both sides of that learning lesson unfortunately. DB might have learned a good lesson if Sis A had responded to his letter to her.

Your incident with DB is insightful also, Pel. I hope he's learned not to be so dismissive of good advice.

I was just reading the story of Rehoboam, the son of Solomon. Obviously the wisdom God gave to Solomon wasn't inherited by his son. How good is it to have wise advisors but the best advice comes from the Lord.

[Sister Alvear]

Well, hindsight is best but we don't have that ability...anyway...many years have passed I think the UPC is a great organization and I should not have said what popped in my brain..

Off to church...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Learning to listen to both sides of a story is important and wise. I've been on both sides of that learning lesson unfortunately. DB might have learned a good lesson if Sis A had responded to his letter to her.

Your incident with DB is insightful also, Pel. I hope he's learned not to be so dismissive of good advice.

I was just reading the story of Rehoboam, the son of Solomon. Obviously the wisdom God gave to Solomon wasn't inherited by his son. How good is it to have wise advisors but the best advice comes from the Lord.

I still, wholeheartedly, agree with Stew on this issue.

Originally Posted by tstew

Miss B, I know what you are saying and I do agree that Sis A may not be in violation of AFF protocol here (although I do know that at times we are told to be careful about naming names), but I think that PO's point is that we do not know enough about this particular situation to be able to accept the characterization that you even make in your post. I obviously don't know anything about this particular situation in Brazil, but I am well enough acquainted with Foreign Missions that I know the complexity of some of these situations. We have dealt with similar situations.

I think it is a stretch to say that DKB insinuated himself into a situation that he knew nothing about because if he knew nothing about the situation, he would not have been able to write the letter in the first place. We have no idea what possible legal issues may have been involved and to what extent he was writing in his lawyerly capacity and not his ministerial capacity.

Originally Posted by tstew

Once again, this illustrates the problem.. PO is saying that one would read the post and walk away saying that Rev. Bernard made a bad judgement call...without knowing enough about the situation.

Originally Posted by tstew

RG, All I'm saying is that it would be very easy for people to walk away saying that he was impulsive, jumped to conclusions, made a youthful mistake or whatever...and not know the whole situations. As someone who has seen many of the same types of situations unfold, I know that there are usually complex legal issues in addition to the complex interpersonal issues. I would suspect that that may be a large reason as to why DKB was the one handling the situation in the first place. He was characterized as impulsively writing a letter placing himself in a situation that he had no knowledge about and no reason to be involved in. I'm just saying that that might not be a fair characterization

Originally Posted by tstew

Miss B, I know that I don't read every post of every thread, but very rarely do I see specific stories being told about how a specific (and named) leader did something "wrong" to someone here personally.

I am not terribly concerned about anything like this affecting you personally, but I know how scuttlebut works and I know how many people come to AFF for info and I know how stories get repeated as gospel and are used to characterize and mischaracterize people.

At this point, I just don't think it is good to have stories circulating illustrating "poor judgement" on his behalf if it cannot be fully demonstrated... or at the very least challenged.

I have a tremendous deal of respect for Sis A and always will. However, I think that if we can wonder if Bro. Bernard showed poor judgement in a situation that we know very little about, we should also be able to wonder if she showed poor judgement in a situation that unfolded right in front of us.

In many cases, I believe that rrford is also correct.

Originally Posted by rrford

Now PO, surely you know that verse to the song is not published nor honored here? I also wish that were the case, but it is not.

While I don't agree with how I, initially, approached the subject, I firmly stand and agree on all of the above quotes.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I haven't apologized on this thread yet,I'm a master at making apologys perhaps I am a apologist.