Creation and Time by Hugh Ross

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

Beg your pardon?

I'm just saying... I've seen Brother David (aka Pelathasis errr however it's spelled) bring nuclear weapons into round 1 of creationism fights... He usually wins with little or no opposition because of this. I'm just trying to say, duck and cover now, cause the nuke is probably done on its way.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

I'm not sure how you can say that YEC is not even worthy of being considered an "alternate opinion."

Some of the most widely-respected and educated contemporary evangelical teachers are young-earth, six-day creationists including Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. R.C. Sproul, Dr. Albert Mohler, Dr. Ligon Duncan, and the late Dr. D. James Kennedy. (If you want sources, I'll get them for you.)

Also, as I'm sure you know, the vast majority of the church leaders throughout history held the same view. And there are many documented PhD scientists from respected schools around the world who hold to YEC.

Ortho - from your screen name I assume there is probably a whole lot more that we agree upon than we disagree about.

MacArthur and Sproul (the two living theologians you cite that I'm most familiar with) both embrace and use the "research" of the Institute for Creation Research, Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute.

Dr. D. James Kennedy (rest his soul) was simply given over to kookiness at times, particularly in his later years (See his "Gospel in the Stars" and other works of astrology).

All of the Young Earth material that you can cite will all go back to these sources, and many also use the material from Kent Hovind's "ministry." Hovind is currently serving a 15 year federal sentence for fraud. Read their footnotes, references and bibliographies.

Interestingly, Sproul's "conversion" to YEC came about at the same time as his involvement with BIOLA had begun. BIOLA is notorious for promulgating the doctrines of the Unification Church and "Reconstructionalist" Rousas John Rushdoony at the "creation" seminars.

I get all the reports from BIOLA and invitations to those seminars. A friend in LA attended a few. He states that at most 10 or 12 people show up to hear the likes of Sproul, Phil Johnson and others. They conduct a nationwide mailing campaign and can get only 10 or 12 people to attend? About half of those were from the "anti" side of the argument, too. Not even the students at BIOLA seem to be interested.

Yes, YEC is ridiculous, plain and simple. I'm sorry to offend, but it's way past time for the Christians of North America to wake up and stop being ----

Sorry.

[pelathais]

I reject the Book Mormon, in large part, because it claims that there were ancient cities dotting the Ohio River Valley. These cities are alleged to have had 100,000's of inhabitants, they were walled with stone walls and the possessed Iron Age technology.

Over one hundred years of searching the Ohio River Valley has failed to uncover a single iron implement or stone wall, let alone the civilizations Joseph Smith had claimed existed there. It's ridiculous to believe the Book of Mormon's account of these cities. Ridiculous.

The Bagadavita and other Vedic scriptures assert that the universe has no beginning and that this very earth upon which we stand has gone through multiple "Ages of Rama" which a literal reading states is in the order of some trillions of years. Trillions.

That is ridiculous, if taken literally. Hindu mathematicians however have found a method of calculation that brings the birth of Rama to around 7,000 B.C. The earliest remains of the Indus River Valley Harappan civilization date to about this time.

I reject a literal reading for these works, not because of theology. I reject them before a theological discussion can even begin. I reject the literal interpretation simply because it is ridiculous. Ridiculous.

Ortho - why should I not conclude that the YEC teachings are just as ridiculous?

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Brother David

Ortho - from your screen name I assume there is probably a whole lot more that we agree upon than we disagree about.

Yes, I imagine that we would agree on a lot, and I realize that the time of creation is not a "salvational" issue....but YEC is one of my hot-button issues because if the inerrancy of one part of Scripture is undermined, then the inerrancy of ALL of Scripture is undermined.

Originally Posted by Brother David

Interestingly, Sproul's "conversion" to YEC came about at the same time as his involvement with BIOLA had begun. BIOLA is notorious for promulgating the doctrines of the Unification Church and "Reconstructionalist" Rousas John Rushdoony at the "creation" seminars.

I'm not very familiar at all with BIOLA or the Unification Church, but I AM very familiar with Rushdoony and Reconstructionism, and I find that I agree with Rushdoony on a lot of things.

Originally Posted by Brother David

I get all the reports from BIOLA and invitations to those seminars. A friend in LA attended a few. He states that at most 10 or 12 people show up to hear the likes of Sproul, Phil Johnson and others. They conduct a nationwide mailing campaign and can get only 10 or 12 people to attend? About half of those were from the "anti" side of the argument, too. Not even the students at BIOLA seem to be interested.

As I said, I don't know a lot about BIOLA, but I do know that the Creation Museum in Cincinnati (which I have visited twice) has had over 1 million in attendance in the last 2 years. Also, Ken Ham is one of the most in-demand Christian speakers in the country, and his speaking events (which I have attended often) are always extremely popular, with sometimes thousands in attendance.

Originally Posted by Brother David

Yes, YEC is ridiculous, plain and simple. I'm sorry to offend, but it's way past time for the Christians of North America to wake up and stop being ----

Sorry.

I guess that's your opinion, but I DO hope we can find some things to agree about, Brother David!

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Brother David

Ortho - from your screen name I assume there is probably a whole lot more that we agree upon than we disagree about.

MacArthur and Sproul (the two living theologians you cite that I'm most familiar with) both embrace and use the "research" of the Institute for Creation Research, Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute.

Dr. D. James Kennedy (rest his soul) was simply given over to kookiness at times, particularly in his later years (See his "Gospel in the Stars" and other works of astrology).

All of the Young Earth material that you can cite will all go back to these sources, and many also use the material from Kent Hovind's "ministry." Hovind is currently serving a 15 year federal sentence for fraud. Read their footnotes, references and bibliographies.

Interestingly, Sproul's "conversion" to YEC came about at the same time as his involvement with BIOLA had begun. BIOLA is notorious for promulgating the doctrines of the Unification Church and "Reconstructionalist" Rousas John Rushdoony at the "creation" seminars.

I get all the reports from BIOLA and invitations to those seminars. A friend in LA attended a few. He states that at most 10 or 12 people show up to hear the likes of Sproul, Phil Johnson and others. They conduct a nationwide mailing campaign and can get only 10 or 12 people to attend? About half of those were from the "anti" side of the argument, too. Not even the students at BIOLA seem to be interested.

Yes, YEC is ridiculous, plain and simple. I'm sorry to offend, but it's way past time for the Christians of North America to wake up and stop being ----

Sorry.

David,

While I reject the YEC I don't believe the information in the bold portion is correct. I have been to more than one of the YEC events that they put on and they were packed out. Not to mention truth is not determined by the number of adherents. Let's be real, money is a factor in any of these events and it wouldn't take too many nationwide campaigns with 10-12 people showing up for them to cancel all future events.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

David,

While I reject the YEC I don't believe the information in the bold portion is correct. I have been to more than one of the YEC events that they put on and they were packed out. Not to mention truth is not determined by the number of adherents. Let's be real, money is a factor in any of these events and it wouldn't take too many nationwide campaigns with 10-12 people showing up for them to cancel all future events.

My experience with BIOLA is admittedly anecdotal, it's just something that came to mind here. I'm still trying to find my friend's blog entry - he's not famous or anything so it may take a while...

With regard to money... The Unification Church of Rev. Sun Myung Moon (the "Moonies") has billions and is not afraid to spread a lot money around. They bought out the conservative Washington Times and put an unknown amount of funds into the Discovery Institute to get their man Rev. Jonathan Wells firmly established on the board.

Rushdoony's father left a fortune of $47 BILLION when he passed. [edit: I've conflated the identities of Howard F. Ahmanson Jr and Rushdoony here. They were close associates. It was the Ahmanson family fortune that has provided the funding for Rushdoony's work].

Rushdoony has been using that to promote people like his son-in-law Gary North's writings and was instrumental in founding the Discovery Institute. Rushdoony proposed doing away with the US Constitution and replacing it with the Law of Moses. He railed against "inter-racial" marriage and promoted capital punishment - - - for "disobedient" children!

These are well heeled players with fat bank accounts. And, they lie.

Ben Stein's recent movie, "Expelled" is a great example. None of the "expelled" "scientists" featured in the film were ever thrown out of anything like they claimed. Just to give one example, the guy at the Smithsonian complained "They took away my keys to the office..." But, he failed to add that the lock at the Smithsonian were all upgraded post-9/11 and he was issued an RFID badge to open the same doors.

He simply lied about being "persecuted." This is the hallmark of the Moonie/Rushdoony alliance. They lie.

The Discovery Institute's involvement in the film was muddied over with that ridiculous scene where Ben stumbles around asking for directions. The DI staff contributed greatly to the film's content and even paid people like Richard Weikart (the 'holocaust guy') to appear. Weikart thanks them for the money in his book.

Rushdoony has promoted repeated lies about the "Christian Nation" history of the United States. The Moonies and the Discovery Institute have teamed up to promote further lies. The whole "movement" is fraught with deception and lies.

Ken Ham is one of the better YEC types. He has asked his people to stop promoting such canards as the "Moon Dust evidence" and the Paluxy River foot print hoaxes. But he still lies about radiometric dating. It's not that he's just wrong on this issue - he is morally wrong. He lies, he fakes "evidences," he hides other evidence and refuses to come clean.

Walter Martin once said, "If you have a problem with intellectual dishonesty, you don't have an intellectual problem. You have a moral problem. You are being dishonest!"

[Orthodoxy]

There were a lot of serious accusations and finger-pointing in Brother David's last post...and none of it was footnoted.

Sure, I may not agree with Rushdoony on some things like the "inter-racial" marriage and other things (although I am nearly positive he did not actually propose capital punishment for disobedient children), but claiming that all he does is spread lies for money is a very serious slander, especially without proper documentation.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

There were a lot of serious accusations and finger-pointing in Brother David's last post...and none of it was footnoted.

Sure, I may not agree with Rushdoony on some things like the "inter-racial" marriage and other things (although I am nearly positive he did not actually propose capital punishment for disobedient children), but claiming that all he does is spread lies for money is a very serious slander, especially without proper documentation.

Not "footnoted?" Pretty lame, Bro. I suspect you already know that everything I said is true. You're a smart guy. But this is an Internet bulletin board, not a dissertation.

The fact that the Discovery Institute is funded and supported by both the Unification Church and the Rushdoony/Ahmanson Reconstructionists is well documented. You may read the personal testimony of Dr. Jonathan Wells here: http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unif...lls/DARWIN.htm

This is an official Moonie website - "Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church in their own words."

And you've parsed my words incorrectly: I did not say, "all he [Rushdoony]does is spread lies for money..." Rushdoony is dead. Far all I know, he's doing very little right now.

I did respond to The Baron's statement about "funded" organizations by pointing out just how well heeled the Reconstructionist Movement and the Unification Church are. Rushdoony's minions lie - not unnecessarily "for money," but they are able to propagate their lies because they already have a bunch of money.

The "Expelled" film is exposed here: http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.../premise-media. Notice especially the details about the "scientists" who claimed they were "expelled" from academia for the belief in "Intelligent Design." They all lied.

R. John Rushdoony's bio at Wikipedia is pretty good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousas_John_Rushdoony

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

(although I am nearly positive he did not actually propose capital punishment for disobedient children)

See page 173 of "The Institutes of Biblical law: A Chalcedon Study, Issue 1" By Rousas John Rushdoony. Rushdoony advocated that the entire U.S. Constitution be replaced with the 613 laws of the Mosaic Code. On page 173 he specifically argues his reasons why Deuteronomy 21:18-21, must be literally enforced. He uses Deuteronomy 32:46-47, to show why.

That Richard Weikart receives funds from the Discovery Institute is, as I stated, proclaimed openly in his own book: "Many thanks also to the Center for Science and Culture (especially Jay Richards and Steve Meyer), which provided crucial funding and much encouragement..." From Darwin to Hitler, Richard Weikart, page x (page Roman Numeral Ten of the Preface).

The Center for Science and Culture is a part of the Moonie and Rushdoony funded Discovery Institute- http://www.discovery.org/csc/.

[pelathais]

But again, why should I NOT conclude that the YEC teaching is as ridiculous as the Book of Mormon's claims of Pre-Columbian Iron Age civilizations in the Ohio River Valley?

Millions of apparently smart people believe the Book of Mormon. Or at least they say they do. Millions more may have just sort of sublimated the nonsensical aspects and and just embraced the warm fuzzies when they can find them while ignoring the ridiculous elements of the religion.

But given the fact that there is no evidence to support the idea that the earth is just 6,000 years old - none! - why should anyone believe this?

1.

2.

3.

(I've started the numbering sequence for anyone to add "evidence" that the earth is just 6,000 years old. Start with number one. Fill in the blanks).

*** I thought that I'd better add - I personally believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God; but I tremble when silly notions are affixed to the eternal truths.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Brother David

But again, why should I NOT conclude that the YEC teaching is as ridiculous as the Book of Mormon's claims of Pre-Columbian Iron Age civilizations in the Ohio River Valley?

Millions of apparently smart people believe the Book of Mormon. Or at least they say they do. Millions more may have just sort of sublimated the nonsensical aspects and and just embraced the warm fuzzies when they can find them while ignoring the ridiculous elements of the religion.

But given the fact that there is no evidence to support the idea that the earth is just 6,000 years old - none! - why should anyone believe this?

1.

2.

3.

(I've started the numbering sequence for anyone to add "evidence" that the earth is just 6,000 years old. Start with number one. Fill in the blanks).

*** I thought that I'd better add - I personally believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God; but I tremble when silly notions are affixed to the eternal truths.

Wasn't there at least 8 or 9 points brought up in the Chick comic?