Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-13-2010, 06:12 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
Christianity without the Cross: A review...

by Jason Dulle.

What I found so surprising in Jason's review is his surprise at what he read. Here is a small excerpt:

Quote:
Fudge contends that there was a concerted effort within the UPC to stamp out the PCI view of salvation (in violation of the spirit of the merger), and that such efforts have largely been successful—so much so that today the soteriological perspective of nearly all the UPC constituency is that of the PAJC. The evidence he presents for both the historic presence of the PCI view, as well as the efforts to stamp it out are compelling. He documents how a series of political moves (yes, politics exist in the church too) and changes to the Articles of Faith have been instrumental in accomplishing a more monolithic view of soteriology within the UPC (something Fudge laments).

I am a relatively young man (34) who has only been in the UPC for 18 years. I was largely ignorant of the history of this organization, so I found the information both relevant and enlightening. I have to admit that given my experience, it was quite a shock to learn that in days past, many in the UPC believed in salvation at repentance. In 18 years I have never been part of a church or known a minister who held to such a soteriology. Reading Fudge’s book was like meeting an organization I never knew.
This comes from a graduate of CLC in Stockton and a student of Daniel Segraves.

You can read the entire review on his blog and the discussion that follows.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ism/#more-1958
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-13-2010, 06:34 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

Another interesting discussion of the book can be found on Amazon.com. I'm going to link JR Ensey's review but the comments following his review are interesting as well (keep scrolling down after you read Ensey's review)...

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3E9M08...R3E9M08ZOUGVVF
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

I thought Christianity Without the Cross was a great book. It helped me to see that I really am Apostolic and believe like lot of the old timers did that I was saved before I was ever baptized in Jesus name and before I was baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:08 PM
DAII DAII is offline
Freedom@apostolicidentity .com


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,597
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

The attempts by Fudge detractors is predictable

Here is Bernie Gillespie's review of Norris 2004 review:

http://inchristalone.org/Cross%20In%...pse%20Main.htm
__________________
VISIT US @ WWW.THE316.COM
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:22 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

And here is Norris' review from Ninety and nine:

Thomas A Fudge, Christianity without the Cross. A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism. (Parkland, FL: Universal Publishers, 2003). vi + 394 pp. $29.95 paper.

Although Thomas A. Fudge’s Christianity without the Cross claims to be “a history of salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism,” the title is somewhat misleading. Rather, Fudge writes a very specific history of a single oneness organization, the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). The UPC, formed in 1945, generally equates John 3:5 with Acts 2:38, ascribing special soteriological significance to Peter’s initiatory sermon on Pentecost. Specifically, the UPC teaches that the New Testament pattern of conversion/initiation is repentance, baptism in Jesus’ name for the remission of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. Fudge offers the reader what amounts to a minority report of those who came to the formation of the UPC believing otherwise, and who, from Fudge’s perspective, lost their voice in the years following the formation of the UPC.

Christianity without the Cross offers an unusual insider look at the workings of UPC church organization. This generally well-written book presents a wealth of information gleaned through numerous interviews in which Fudge demonstrates a global understanding of issues within the UPC. There is, unfortunately, some methodological unevenness to his presentation. He begins the book by tracing the historical development of Pentecostalism in the twentieth century; because Fudge privileges Robert Mapes Anderson’s construal of the formation of Pentecostalism while largely ignoring the corrective work of Grant Wacker, the reader is left with a reductionist deprivation theory as the explanation for Pentecostalism origins.

Further bias manifests itself when the history of the United Pentecostal Church itself is offered. It appears that for Fudge, the worst sin of the UPC is that they are in fact the UPC. While Catholics or Lutherans might defend their place for baptism or other sacraments, Fudge allows no such quarter for the UPC—they become Christians without a cross. In the end, this kind of cutting critique gets in the way of the narrative. On p. 36, William Durham, with whom Fudge is sympathetic, emerges as the “only authentic or original theologian of those early years…” while the people who equate Acts 2:38 with the new birth are throughout the text “radicals,” even though, by Fudge’s own research, they always constituted the majority position of the UPC. The thing that Fudge works to prove, the kind of underlying premise of the work, is that by historically consolidating the majority position, the UPC is somehow in violation of the spirit of its own articles of faith.

Christianity without the Cross offers a helpful critique but self destructs in the last third of the text. People who were apparently forced to leave the UPC emerge as heroic martyrs, while those who are in Fudge’s mind responsible for their leaving come across as both dishonest and reprehensible. This shoot-to-kill vindictiveness causes one to second-guess Fudge’s credibility throughout the entire book, which is unfortunate.

One doesn’t have to agree with the perspective of Thomas A. Fudge to be thankful to him for cataloguing this piece of history of the UPC. To what level doctrinal development occurred may be argued, but to quibble about it misses the point. It is certain that those within the UPC place a different meaning on historical development than does Fudge. Both Classical Pentecostals in general and the United Pentecostals in particular view themselves as restorationist movements, and as such, doctrinal development and solidification of that doctrinal position is normal and works to bring modern day Christianity closer to the teachings of the earliest church. Although Fudge is within his rights to disallow this perspective, it is unfortunate that his lack of charity takes away from what is an otherwise interesting and informative contribution to the place of the UPC in modern Pentecostalism.

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archive...823/review.htm
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:45 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

The review by Norris was interesting and I can sympathise with some of what he said. In fact I do agree the title of the book seems unwarranted and in fact a pejorative. Misleading.

However I take issue with Norris's defense of the 3 steppers "consolidating". That was in fact against the spirit of the merger.

Those that hold to a 1 step view are not just in the minority but due to the consolidation spoken of would really be seen as unwelcome and Im sure many of them feel that way, unwelcome.

The message is that this is OUR organization, not yous.

That was the spirit of the Affirmation statement too...to root out a segment of the UPC...

BTW the "UPCI" view that baptism results in remission (forgiveness) of sins contradicts the articles of faith, which state forgiveness is obtained by genuine repentance
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-13-2010, 08:47 PM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
...
BTW the "UPCI" view that baptism results in remission (forgiveness) of sins contradicts the articles of faith, which state forgiveness is obtained by genuine repentance
Much of the original UPC Manual was written based on the PCI manual.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-13-2010, 09:13 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

and the orignal 3 steppers were ok with it.......hmmmmm
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-13-2010, 09:40 PM
Hoovie's Avatar
Hoovie Hoovie is offline
Supercalifragilisticexpiali...


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

The greatest question I have about the Fudge book is still concerning the title.
Even after having read Fudge's response, I cannot understand why he would bias his work with such an accusation.

Had he chosen something less inflammatory (as Bernie Gillespie suggests) , he would have automatically expanded his audience within the Oneness Pentecostal community. While, the material contained within stands on it's own, I must believe TF desired a large audience outside the movement over setting the record straight to those within the movement including his own father.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-13-2010, 09:43 PM
Baron1710's Avatar
Baron1710 Baron1710 is offline
Cross-examine it!


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orcutt, CA.
Posts: 6,736
Re: Christianity without the Cross: A review...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
by Jason Dulle.

What I found so surprising in Jason's review is his surprise at what he read. Here is a small excerpt:



This comes from a graduate of CLC in Stockton and a student of Daniel Segraves.

You can read the entire review on his blog and the discussion that follows.

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...ism/#more-1958
If he is surprised by this he should have listen better in class. I was at CLC during the same time he was and I heard it.
__________________
"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2009 Review of Homegoing Saints Esther Fellowship Hall 24 01-01-2010 03:09 PM
Christianity Without the Cross, By Thomas A. Fudge ChurchMouse Fellowship Hall 50 01-18-2008 09:40 AM
A Reverend's Rambling Review of 'Relevance' Steadfast Fellowship Hall 62 08-16-2007 07:54 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.