An Angel Highway?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

How much do we really know about the angelic world?

We know very, very little, which is why - in my opinion - he shouldn't talk about them as if he did know.

[Aquila]

I think Bro. Stoneking's message is on the edge, and is perhaps mysticism, however, I see nothing in it worth engaging on a heresy hunt against him.

Heresy hunters divide the body as much, if not more, than those who have divergent opinions about non-essentials.

What one believes about angels has no bearing on the Gospel. I assure you that if we all sat down and discussed our views on angels, ghosts, the rapture, reincarnation (Hb. Gilgul), and other topics we'd discover that many of us have very different opinions in some areas.

I admonish grace and understanding be given to Bro. Stoneking, even if we disagree with him. Nowhere did Bro. Stoneking say that if we don't believe like him we're lost. Yet we're saying that because he doesn't believe like us he's a heretic, teaching of false doctrine, etc., etc.

Some of you don't know what spirit ye are of.

[DAII]

I find the musings of a former atheist gone Acts 2:38 or hell to give Grace breaks to the esoterics and mystics among us to be amusing when she would not give that level of tolerance to trinitarians or universalists (like the one posting in this thread) a free pass.

Great pains. Were taken by the Apostolic writers to warn the Church of the fables and devices of false teachers and Mizpeh this constitutes fables.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

We know very, very little, which is why - in my opinion - he shouldn't talk about them as if he did know.

Exactly. That's the actual problem--not talking about possibilities.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think Bro. Stoneking's message is on the edge, and is perhaps mysticism, however, I see nothing in it worth engaging on a heresy hunt against him.

Heresy hunters divide the body as much, if not more, than those who have divergent opinions about non-essentials.

What one believes about angels has no bearing on the Gospel. I assure you that if we all sat down and discussed our views on angels, ghosts, the rapture, reincarnation (Hb. Gilgul), and other topics we'd discover that many of us have very different opinions in some areas.

I admonish grace and understanding be given to Bro. Stoneking, even if we disagree with him. Nowhere did Bro. Stoneking say that if we don't believe like him we're lost. Yet we're saying that because he doesn't believe like us he's a heretic, teaching of false doctrine, etc., etc.

Some of you don't know what spirit ye are of.

Good post, Aquila.

[Aquila]

Bro. Lee Stoneking isn't here to defend himself.

But I am.....

I'll share what I believe about angels and you can attack me if you like... at least I have the privilege of defending myself, unlike Elder Stoneking.

I believe that originally in the dateless past, prior to the creation of our world (Genesis 1:1-2) the creation was in perfect harmony. God ruled from Heaven and on earth there was an angelic paradise. I believe that Lucifer ruled in this Paradise from the Garden of God, Eden. Lucifer reflected the light and beauty of God as he led the angelic hosts in worship. (Ezekiel 28:13) But there came a day when Lucifer's authority over the earth wasn't enough. Lucifer desired to rule from Heaven. And then we read about Lucifer's rebellion....

Isaiah 14:12-15
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

At this point Lucifer was cast back to the earth and was named the enemy of God, Ha Satan, or Satan.

God destroys the angelic world on earth and the earth was left without form and void (Genesis 1:2). In six literal days God fashions the earth and creates man. When God creates man God gives man "dominion" over the earth, dominion that used to belong to Satan,

Genesis 1:27-28
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Man's role was to replenish and to care for this world. Man was also given absolute dominion. As stated before, this dominion used to belong to Satan. Now, Satan watches as the world that was once his is handed over to man, a being made in God's own image, yet a little lower than the angels. Such an act was a direct insult to Satan's pride. Now Satan became consumed with hatred for man. His sole desire became focused on bringing man down, taking dominion back, and then destroying mankind...the creature made in God's image.

God had planted a two trees in the garden. One the tree of life. Should man choose to eat of this tree mankind would live forever in harmony with God. God also placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Should man eat of this tree mankind would learn both good and evil. God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake in the tree of knowledge. However, Satan materialized and took the form of a serpent and slithered into the garden. Satan's goal was to cause man to sin against God, alienating man from God's favor. By getting man to submit to his authority and defy God, Satan would regain dominion over the earth.

Satan's plan worked. Eve succumbed to the temptation to partake in the fruit and Adam willingly sinned against God to partake in the fruit with Eve. Now man was alienated from God and Satan regained dominion of the earth making him once more, "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Now one goal was left. Destroy mankind. Satan set out to tempt man to deeper and deeper sin and mankind quickly became more and more wicked. But Satan wasn't finished. Satan hatched a plan to destroy all of man in one fell swoop. Satan appointed a fallen angel to lead a Satanic invasion of planet earth. These fallen angels were to materialize on earth (as so many other angels throughout the OT) and to corrupt man in every way necessary to provoke God to destroy mankind. These angels taught man the occult arts and methods of war and torture. Even worse... these angels began to assume authority as divine kings and divine rulers. They then took wives from the daughters of men. Most don't believe that angels can reproduce. The Bible says they simply don't marry. I assure you that if an angel can materialize eat, drink, and wrestle, they can function in any other way the form they take can function. When these angels took to themselves wives from the daughters of men their progeny was half devil/half human. These became known as the Nephilim, or "giants". The ferocious evil possessed by these creatures was unearthly. The wickedness and violence that these fallen angels brought to earth was unsurpassed. God decided that he would destroy mankind with a global flood... however there was one righteous man who was untouched by their wickedness.... a city king named Noah. Noah was a righteous man of peace who had taught his family the ways of the Lord in the midst of this Satanic invasion of earth.

God called Noah to build an ark in which to preserve every beast on earth that was untouched by this demonic horror. For 120 years Noah led the effort to build the ark. During this period Noah preached to mankind, rebuking and resisting these Satanic beings. As the earths climate began to change animals began to migrate to the ark. Eventually the day came when Noah and his family entered the ark and the LORD shut them in. God sent a massive flood to destroy all of mankind and to cleans the earth of the wickedness that had overcome it.

The angels who took human form were bound in chains of darkness, there to remain until the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:4)

Their progeny, the Nephilim (Genesis 6:4), drowned in the flood. However, these beings were half devil/half human. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment, but these weren't true human beings. The angels that sinned were bound in chains of darkness... but these weren't true angels. Being half human/half devil their disembodied spirits were left to roam the earth. These are the "unclean spirits" often encountered in the Bible who seek to possess men's bodies. Their ultimate desire is to live again and taste sin, corrupting mankind as in the beginning. Today they are increasingly possessing more and more of mankind provoking violence and every form of evil.

I believe that holy angels are spiritual beings. They often appear as men and even as globes and pillars of light. They are of superior intelligence and wisdom. However, in their true spiritual form these are rather bestial in nature. They are fearsome and terrifying. More can be said here... but I digress.

There, you have my opinion of the angelic realm and some of the things of this nature. Please share your thoughts. Lee Stoneking isn't here to defend himself. But I am.

God bless.

[TroubleMaker]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

So Stoneking doesn't get a break (I'm not saying you have to condone his teaching on angels) but a couple of the "orthodox" commentators lend credence to what Stoneking teaches on angels that look like us, do they get a bye but LS gets singled out for such an atrocity? Is it all about bashing Stoneking because he's UPC? Where is the grace you rely so heavily upon from God for? Can you spare a drop for LS?

The angel passage in Acts 12 sounds like Jewish folklore but how do you explain the man who was healed seeing TWBarnes in his hospital room all night when TB stated that he prayed a quick prayer and left? Do you think it was a familiar spirit sitting at his bedside all night?

How much do we really know about the angelic world? They can take on the form of men. Is it beyond thinking they might even take on the visage of the one they watch over? I have a difficult time totally dismissing things I know nothing about. But...there has been an abuse of things pertaining to angels like Joseph Smith of the Mormon fame and lately, Todd Bentley of the Lakeland revival.

I can understand your distaste at what LS is saying but can you be 100% certain that he belongs in the heretic bin?

1) My Stoner thoughts are NOT about bashing the UPC. I'll tell you this, there is one group that I dislike FAR more than the UPC and that's the TBN crowd. In fact, if I were forced to join the TBN crowd types, or the UPC, I'd head to the UPC in a heartbeat. Half a heartbeat. Stoneking's heresy reeks of the extra-biblical phenomenons that are common among the TBN heretics. And interesting that you mentioned Todd Bentley. Stoneking's absurdities are every bit as unacceptable as Todd Bentley kicking people in the stomach and claiming healing.

2) You said, "Where is the grace you rely so heavily upon from God for? Can you spare a drop for LS?" I would ask, where do you see "grace" for those that are misleading, en masse, the precious people of God? I see nothing in the New Testament about granting "grace" to those who intentionally, or unintentionally, teach blatant untruths to the Body of Christ. In fact, Paul said, "Let them be accursed."

As far as the grace "I rely on", I'm talking about the grace that is poured out in abundance to the "tax collector", the prostitute, the drug dealer, the disenfranchised. The only people that Jesus ever threatened with hell were religious people...people that were leading "The Flock" astray. Stoneking is clearly leading people astray. I think you know how I've felt about naming people on the forum and speaking against them. I don't do it. But enough is enough. This man is dangerous.

3) You second paragraph...is that something from later in the video? I only watched about a minute of it.

4) I get tired of the so-called Christian "watchdogs" that throw nearly everyone into the "heretic bin" as you called it. I get sick of Hank Hanegraaff acting as if he's the pastor of the world and analyzing who's right and who's wrong. Very irritating. That being said, absolutely Stoneking belongs in the "heretic bin." I mean, how much slack does this man receive for the hair garbage, angels, mysticism, etc., before someone declares, "Enough is enough."

I was sickened by his antics when I first saw him in 1984 and it's only gotten worse. Whether it was Landmark I was attending or In Spite of the Times in Mangunville, I always thought, "How in the world do they let that man touch the microphone"?

5) Would you be willing to lend the same "grace" to those who proclaim "God in three persons", or the "Non-existence of tongues (as we know them)", which I lean toward, or baptism in "The name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (which I practice).


For me, this isn't even a close call. He's dangerous.

[Aquila]

Religionists will never accept that which is learned by walking in the Spirit. It doesn't "compute" to them.

[Aquila]

At the risk of being called a "mystic" (a label I'd wear with honor by the way after researching the history of Christian mystics) I'd like to ask a question to all those who criticize those of us who walk in the realms of the supernatural....

Why do unclean spirits possess human beings? Do you know? Have you ever cast one out? Do you even KNOW what you're dealing with?

Please explain if you do.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Religionists will never accept that which is learned by walking in the Spirit. It doesn't "compute" to them.

Do experiences (which are subjective to those who are subjected to them) rescind scripture?

[Aquila]

The Bible speaks of the angels that "sinned" being bound in "chains of darkness" (2 Peter 2:4). What did these angels do to warrant being presently bound in chains of darkness while so many other fallen angels, including Satan himself, continue to be allowed to roam the spiritual plane? Obviously Peter, the writer of II Peter 2:4 knew. Now, if Peter was BOUND strictly to SCRIPTURE regarding his spiritual knowledge... where does SCRIPTURE record these angels as "sinning" a sin so terrible they'd be bound while Satan is allowed to roam free?