The "Claim to the Name"

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I've heard it - "The Lord our God is One - father, spirit, son"

That is so goofy.

The Authorized Holy Text of King James himself says, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (I John 5:7)

What are these song-changers afraid of??

It reminds me of the old Gordon Jensen song....great song (I Should Have Been Crucified).....that pentecostals used to lyrically butcher. There's a line that says, "But Jesus, God's Son, took my place."

Everyone HAD to sing, "But Jesus, my Lord took my place.

Ridiculous.

"For God so loved the world that gave His only begotten Son.....". Maybe that verse was mistranslated?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You are obviously, once again, picking and choosing which quotes to use.

••Correct. I'm picking and choosing the quotes I find objectionable.

Then I said the following: "They can't get a handle on it like "we" do.

••....which I will contend forever is a theologically arrogant position to take.

Different understandings bring different things we can get a handle on. Most oneness folks haven't a CLUE of what justification is WITH a oneness understanding. Most Trinitarians have a good handle on justification but not a handle on what God did if they don't really know the price that was paid.

••I think these stereotypes are dangerous, damaging, and contribute to the "Us vs. Them" mentality that is greatly limiting the effectiveness of the movement of Jesus Christ.

HUGE difference between God sending the 2nd person of the godhead to earth to pay the price and Him coming Himself.

••Maybe there's a different strain of trinitarians in Ohio, but here on the west coast, I haven't talked to a single trinitarian who doesn't believe that "In the beginning was The Word...and The Word was God....and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us", nor one that didn't believe "God was manifest in the flesh." Every trinitarian I've ever talked to is quick to say that Jesus was/is God. Second "person", second "manifestation." Same dif.

I certainly don't beat Trinitarians up over it, but there is a big difference.

••I see zero difference. Nada.

My justification comment was completely relevant. Nothing more important, at least to me, than the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Most oneness folks don't have a clue as to what that means. That puts them in an inferior position when it comes to understanding where our justification comes from because the opposite is justification by works.

••Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't. It's still beside my point I'm making in this thread. You think it's relevant. I don't. We'll disagree on that one.

THAT was when you accused me of arrogance and stated: "I'm not sure what I can do except chuckle. Exhibit A in theological arrogance. Oh well, at least you're honest about your superiority."

••It's an important distinction that I'm identifying you as holding a "Theologically arrogant" position, not "personally arrogant." Sorry, but if you claim to have a greater understanding of God because of your theology, me and countless other trinitarians are going to agree that you're displaying theological arrogance.

Those who have a "handle" on the gifts are not superior to those who don't. They're just in a different place. We're all there to some degree and that has nothing to do with who is better.

••I haven't met any Christians who didn't have a "handle on the gifts." Of whom are you speaking? I've certainly seen the gifts abused, but I've never seen the gifts in greater operation than many non-pentecostal/charismatic churches I've attended. Willow Creek would certainly top that list.

Like I've said before....it seems that no matter what I say or how I say it you'll try to pick a fight.

••I disagree with you in some areas. If you see that as "picking a fight", that's your prerogative.

I won't return your personal attack.

••I'd like for you to identify my "personal attacks" on you. Please do. I'd like to correct it if I've done that.

Bottom line: I'm really sorry that your problem with me goes WAY back to the Nancy Pelosi thing, (which was a thread I didn't even start)

••One hundred percent untrue. Completely false. Here is the link to the problematic thread that features your obscene (to me) joke about a "nekkid" Pelosi. I'm really disappointed that you would cloud our discussion with such a falsehood.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...t=nancy+pelosi

but that is your problem not mine.

••I don't accept that. Your flippant remarks that make fun of the nudity of an older government leader is very much your problem. Sorry.

Remember, you're the one who came after me, not vice versa.

••For that horrific, tasteless joke? You're darn right I did, and I'd do it again. I should be allowed to question those types of posts, even if it is a post by one of the owners of a forum.

I don't have a problem with you, but I do have a problem with your lack of civility

••Is disagreeing with you uncivil? If not, could you show me where I've been uncivil and I'll correct that as well.

and I'm certainly not the only one here who thinks so.

••True. I'm aware of and ok with that. But since you're making the accusation, are you able to use an example? If objecting to horrific, tasteless, and obscene (to me) jokes, and theologically arrogant (to me) positions, I'll just have to be content with being perceived that way.

The real problem, IMO, is your perception. If you had been here for a long time you'd know that I frequently have been criticized for being a liberal and not putting everyone into hell who doesn't believe Ac. 2:38. You're really labeling the wrong guy when you intimate that my theological position is arrogant. You certainly don't know what you're talking about especially since you don't have a clue about the people I have relationships with.

••I disagree. I see the real problem as you stating that you have a greater understanding of God because of your theology. That has nothing to do with who has ever thought you were a liberal. It's all relevant how we're perceived. To an atheist, I'm a conservative. To a UPCer, I'm a far-left liberal. None of that changes any potentially theologically arrogant positions I may or may not hold.

The crazy thing to me is that you jump on me when I AGREE with you and then you boast about going on the offensive against those who feel they have spiritual superiority.

••Believing that you have a greater understanding of God because of your theology is NOT agreeing with me. And that's the only issue here.

Initially, I reached out to you, connected you to our website, explained our mission, and you complimented it. But it all changed when I strongly objected to your flippant Pelosi joke. It's gone downhill since then and I'm sorry about that.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

We sing it. It's a beautiful song of adoration. The three ARE one...what is our problem?

I have heard it sung, The Godhead, he is one.

At my church, we do not change any of the original lines to the song.

"The Godhead Three in One,
Father, Spirit, Son.
The Lion and the Lamb,
The Lion and the Lamb."

(The capitalizations are a product of my limited understanding of God."

[Sam]

How about this song?

YOUR NAME IS HOLY

One
You are the sovereign I am
Your name is holy
You are the pure spotless Lamb
Your name is holy

Two
You are the Almighty One
Your name is holy
You are the Christ, God’s own Son
Your name is holy

Three
You are the Father and Son
Your name is holy.
You are the Spirit who’s come
Your name is Holy.

Four
You are the First and the Last
Your name is holy.
The future, the present, the past
Your name is holy.

Five
Your name is higher than all
Your name is holy.
Jesus, for mercy we call
Your name is holy.

Chorus
In Your name, there is mercy for sin
There is safety within
In Your holy name
In Your name, there is strength to remain
To stand in spite of pain
In Your holy name

We used to sing verses one and two plus the chorus at the Vineyard Church where I went from 1992 to 2006

Verses 3, 4 and 5 were made up later

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Sam

How about this song?

YOUR NAME IS HOLY

One
You are the sovereign I am
Your name is holy
You are the pure spotless Lamb
Your name is holy

Two
You are the Almighty One
Your name is holy
You are the Christ, God’s own Son
Your name is holy

Three
You are the Father and Son
Your name is holy.
You are the Spirit who’s come
Your name is Holy.

Four
You are the First and the Last
Your name is holy.
The future, the present, the past
Your name is holy.

Five
Your name is higher than all
Your name is holy.
Jesus, for mercy we call
Your name is holy.

Chorus
In Your name, there is mercy for sin
There is safety within
In Your holy name
In Your name, there is strength to remain
To stand in spite of pain
In Your holy name

We used to sing verses one and two plus the chorus at the Vineyard Church where I went from 1992 to 2006

Verses 3, 4 and 5 were made up later

Sam,

I don't recognize this song, but I'd sure like to hear it.

I like Vineyard's Praise and Worship music-- well mainly their stuff from the late 90's to about 2003.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Sam,

I don't recognize this song, but I'd sure like to hear it.

I like Vineyard's Praise and Worship music-- well mainly their stuff from the late 90's to about 2003.

We sang it like this at the Vineyard where I went

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRoSDHbq-LY

[Sam]

Here is another version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H79q4Ab43I

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You're wrong again and have your facts mixed up!

Sam started the original thread with the joke about the pictures. THAT is what you got upset about. THEN I followed up with my humorous thread.

REALLY don't bother with responding. I've said this numerous times before.....it's not worth it .........unless it's worth something to you. I really tire of dealing with you. The entire church I pastor doesn't give me this much trouble! LOL

You really seem to have something in your "craw" against pentecostals. Harboring a wound there somewhere?

Bump!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You're wrong again and have your facts mixed up!

Sam started the original thread with the joke about the pictures. THAT is what you got upset about. THEN I followed up with my humorous thread.

REALLY don't bother with responding. I've said this numerous times before.....it's not worth it .........unless it's worth something to you. I really tire of dealing with you. The entire church I pastor doesn't give me this much trouble! LOL

I gave a thoughtful, sincere, and evidenced response and you attempt to order me not to respond? Interesting.

I'm amazed that I post the ACTUAL thread that you told an obscene (to me) joke and you STILL can't acknowledge it? That's truly alarming. It doesn't anger me, it just makes me sad. I'm afraid there's not much to accomplish if you're unable to dialogue with any element of honesty. My goodness, mow, you deny you ever started the thread that I protested, I post the exact thread in which you did, and then you order me not to respond???

Speechless.

And here again, as I attempt to dialogue in subjective subject matter, you hurl another personal insult at me by telling me I cause you more trouble than your entire church. I've asked repeatedly to evidence your claims that I insult you and you produce nothing, followed by a degrading remark. That's unfortunate. And I surprised that you take this seriously enough that I bother you that much.

You may be tired of dealing with me, but I quite enjoy talking with you. You're a good man, administer a good forum, and I'm trying to understand what causes you to respond to me the way you do.

Thanks MOW.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

You really seem to have something in your "craw" against pentecostals. Harboring a wound there somewhere?

Bump!

If it makes you feel more secure in your opinions of me, to believe that, or wonder if, I'm harboring a wound, then feel free.

I'll conclude this (unless you have more to say) by copying and pasting a line you posted and then posting the direct link that contradicts that statement. If my posting of this leads you to believe that I somehow dislike pentecostals, so be it. The truth? I don't like it when people say they didn't so something, when in fact, they did.


_____________
"Bottom line: I'm really sorry that your problem with me goes WAY back to the Nancy Pelosi thing, (which was a thread I didn't even start) but that is your problem not mine." (MoW, post 127, this thread)


http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...t=nancy+pelosi (thread started by MoW)