For all the "one steppers"...

[Phil Stearns]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Timmy kind of beat me to it. I was ask if there is any verification of ANYONE ever making heaven? I mean there is no long distance carrier that could cover that call of confirmation.

See post #7.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Phil Stearns

No, but it has not been my argument that the lack of proof indicates that the Acts 2:38 message was not preached and therefore no one was saved for approximately 1800 years.

Might not be your arguement but to be honest I haven't heard anyone MAKE that arguement that Acts 2:38 wasn't preached in the Dark Ages. I am sure at some point that it was taught in those ages. Reason I say that is if it wasn't the Bible prophecy of God coming back once the Gospel was preached across the world would have to have rebegun after the Dark Ages right?

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Phil Stearns

See post #7.

I did...was just stating my thoughts, but I was a bit late in doing so. Thanks

[Phil Stearns]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Might not be your arguement but to be honest I haven't heard anyone MAKE that arguement that Acts 2:38 wasn't preached in the Dark Ages. I am sure at some point that it was taught in those ages. Reason I say that is if it wasn't the Bible prophecy of God coming back once the Gospel was preached across the world would have to have rebegun after the Dark Ages right?

You got me. that thar is a stumper.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Phil Stearns

Many of you are fond of saying that there is no proof of anyone being saved by the 3 steps of Acts 2:38 in the past 1800-1900 years, before the turn of the 20th century back to the apostolic era. Right?

My question to you would be, do you have any proof of anyone being saved by simply "believing" or "justification by faith" before the Protestant Reformation? By your reasoning no one was saved during the Dark Ages or from the post apostolic era to the Reformation because there is no record of it on a large scale.

Augustine (354-430 A.D.) wrote that because of the sinfulness of human nature all virtuous acts must originate with God. We repent and believe because God sovereignly bestows the grace upon us needed for our salvation.

Humans are "so hopelessly corrupted that we are absolutely incapable of doing anything good by our own forces; free choice, if it means a choice between good and evil, has been utterly wasted by sin; our will, insofar as it is ours, and not God’s, can merely do evil and desire evil,” Augustine wrote.

The answer to this is the grace of God.

Augustine was perhaps the most influential theologian since the Apostle Paul. His writings were in fact the motivation behind the Protestant Reformation. Thomas à Kempis and Desiderius Erasmus are just two of the most famous members of the Augustinian orders, and one did not have to be an Augustinian to be a follower of his teachings concerning grace in the NT.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Phil Stearns

No, but it has not been my argument that the lack of proof indicates that the Acts 2:38 message was not preached and therefore no one was saved for approximately 1800 years.

The question doesn't really involve an attempt to know the mind of God as Timmy humorously suggests. The question involves the historicity of an idea.

In this case the idea is the "Three Stepper" doctrine and the fact that it had no adherents before the 20th Century.

Phil asks if the same can be said concerning the idea of "sovereign election" and justification by grace.

The answer to Phil's question is that there are many examples of those who believed justification by grace before the 20th Century.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Might not be your arguement but to be honest I haven't heard anyone MAKE that arguement that Acts 2:38 wasn't preached in the Dark Ages. I am sure at some point that it was taught in those ages. Reason I say that is if it wasn't the Bible prophecy of God coming back once the Gospel was preached across the world would have to have rebegun after the Dark Ages right?

Acts 2:38, was written (along with the rest of the Book of Acts) sometime in the late First Century. Thus, it was "taught" or at least read from that time forward.

I have made the argument that the "Water & Spirit" doctrine, also referred to as the "Three Stepper" teaching concerning Acts 2:38, was not preached nor believed by anyone from approximately 200 A.D. until after 1913 A.D.

No one has ever answered that challenge. I obviously can't know what every human being who lived in that time period actually believed or preached - no one could. The lack, however, of any historical witnesses for what the "Three Stepper" crowd has called the absolutely essential condition for salvation in the Church Age does present them with a real problem.

Salvation by grace through faith has no such problem.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Acts 2:38, was written (along with the rest of the Book of Acts) sometime in the late First Century. Thus, it was "taught" or at least read from that time forward.

I have made the argument that the "Water & Spirit" doctrine, also referred to as the "Three Stepper" teaching concerning Acts 2:38, was not preached nor believed by anyone from approximately 200 A.D. until after 1913 A.D.

No one has ever answered that challenge. I obviously can't know what every human being who lived in that time period actually believed or preached - no one could. The lack, however, of any historical witnesses for what the "Three Stepper" crowd has called the absolutely essential condition for salvation in the Church Age does present them with a real problem.

Salvation by grace through faith has no such problem.

This argument makes sense. My previous posts were mainly talking about the infilling of the Holy Ghost part. The 3-stepper deal probably came about sometime after Azuza but before now..

Doesn't matter too much because we all know that EVERYONE is saved at acceptance in Christ. Pel, what do you think that the 'Apostolic' church would have been like in the Dark Ages?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

This argument makes sense. My previous posts were mainly talking about the infilling of the Holy Ghost part. The 3-stepper deal probably came about sometime after Azuza but before now..

Doesn't matter too much because we all know that EVERYONE is saved at acceptance in Christ. Pel, what do you think that the 'Apostolic' church would have been like in the Dark Ages?

Do you mean as if we could teleport today's "Apostolics" back to the time of Clovis the Frank?

It would depend upon where they landed. If they were fortunate enough to land in the pagan territories of Northern and Eastern Europe - then they'd probably fit right in and even prosper. Those who manifested the very ancient rite of "prophecy" (speaking unintelligibly or "in tongues") were often valued as shamans.

If they landed in the Byzantine court they'd have some explaining to do, but the Greek mystic traditions were still strong enough that they'd probably just be sent out of the city.

If they landed in central Italy they'd be irrelevant; which would probably incite them to ever increasing levels of agitation (I've seen this) until they became a nuisance and were harried from the land.

If they found themselves in Islamic territory they'd be dead, unless they made their way to Tariq's court in modern Spain.