For those that left the UPC...

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

Yes, it is easy and comfortable to just follow directions and rules, much easier than having a daily relationship with God. A relationship that reflects commitment to him of the heart. He wants us to be followers of him.. and him alone. Living with the fruits of the Spirit being manifested on a daily basis is far harder than just throwing one clothes to look a part. It takes picking up your cross daily.

This is the one reason that if I could go back and change things.. it would have been that I left earlier while my girls were much younger. I believed differently, but stayed in, going along, looking the same. My girls seemed to think (although I was telling them otherwise) that to live the part meant that I truly believed to a certain extent. Even though I talked one thing, I didn't have the courage to live another. I was afraid to trust God because it was the only thing I knew.

I have spent a lot of time using scripture to change the thought process of my girls. Not to do with clothes, but the inward man and their perception of God their Father...it is not works based performance...and it never can be.

I have had my work cut out for me. I have had to dismantle distorted views and self condemnation that were put there from the time they small. I keep telling myself that I didn't know better, and even as he teaches me... I turn around teaching them.

I love your first paragraph!

All of the UPC isn't this way though. In the UPC church I came into after God saved me in England....the pastor never taught on "standards"...ever! He was the most Christlike person I have ever known! Didn't speak an evil word against anyone, not even those who left the church, spoke evil of him, and took others with them. Some UPC pastors allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in setting personal convictions.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by ILG

I have suffered from self-condemnation my whole life, before I ever got in church, but much moreso while I was in it and in the thought process of the UPC. That has lessened a lot with me, but my personality will probably always be self-condemnatory. I do not feel brainwashed. I did feel brainwashed while I was in....much more than I realized while I was in. I see more in hindsight.

ILG, I feel the pain of your personality. I have been set from from most of it and attacking thought processes of my own. I feel like I am coming out the other side though.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The last part of that scripture was added in the KJV translation... the original Greek leaves it out. We should read that "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" period!

None, 0 condemnation if you are in him. 1 John 3:18-20 My dear children, let's not just talk about love; let's practice real love. This is the only way we'll know we're living truly, living in God's reality. It's also the way to shut down debilitating self-criticism, even when there is something to it. For God is greater than our worried hearts and knows more about us than we do ourselves.

Good to see you, and praying for you.

sorry for hijacking the thread everyone.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

Thanks ForeverBlessed, I did not leave due to standards. I actually did not realize those lies until I joined this forum. I am sure my old church tells people that I never believed in "the standards" and lived a lie while I was there, but I was just as deceived as the leadership on that on.

I left due to a bunch of other delusional thinking and spiritual abuse that goes on there. It is one thing to say that Jesus comes before your family, but when a bunch people decide they ARE Jesus (come in the flesh)and therefore what the leaders say is above anything else is down right scary.

I understand and have seen it in action and seen and even experienced the control over the years.

I had a friend leave about the same time I did, they went to another church. Most of my family seems to just ignore the changes and even I've been ignored. I think maybe from embarrassment...or they might not really know what to do or say...who knows?

However, I read emails daily from a friend who left the same church I left... she was on Pastor's staff. She would forward me the emails and texts often crying, what do I do now? The condemnation and judgement that poured from him as he tried to manipulate and control her with guilt. He proclaimed judgment upon her household.. it was ungodly. I prayed and counseled her to keep her heart right, just stay focused on the Lord and where he was leading their family. The same pastor talked with me and told me that I was going down a road I would never recover, advised me to quit listening to others, but he knew I was not coming back.

I realize that not all churches or UPC pastors have control issues, but unfortunately there has been enough of it within. The closer I get to the Lord and learn of him through his word, do I realize the error of things that others never give a second thought.

Try to stay focused on what is right and stay above the fray of talk... thinking on things that are pure. Forgiving those offenses and things that have inflicted pain. It is the only way to heal.

blessings.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

God bless you with direction, patience, and lots of love.

Thanks. I very sincerely believe that he will. If God opens a door in another direction, I'm taking it.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

The above was said in response to someone "encouraging them" that there are some people higher up in the UPC trying to point out the lies they force people to suck down. I am not sure why anyone would wait??? Unless you are still drinking the Kool-aid believing it is the only church that saves. (Not saying you believe this at all)

I can see looking for the right timing to leave, but not stick around because you want to STILL stay a part of an ORGANIZATION that doesn't even recognize the Body of Christ at large. A bunch of humans taking the place of God by deciding who is and isn't going to hell by their interpretation. An organization that treats people that love God, possibly more than them, worse than a stray dog they may find on the street.

How crazy is this? Some people are staying in a church pretending they believe stuff that isn't true. They are waiting for a group of men to make a decision for the whole UPC that releases them from living a lie. For your own sake, release yourself from the lie, don't wait on a group of men to decide what the Bible says today, so they can change it again tomorrow.

Why would you want to be a part of an organization that decides for you what the Bible says and what you can and can't do? It sounds a bit like how the Catholics used to live, where only the Priest could tell them what the Bible said.

Sorry, I guess this hit a nerve today. I am missing my family that thinks I am going to hell, because I don't go to their church. Yet, I know so many that are just living a lie in that church, because they don't want to have to experience the same hell they are required to put me through.

You kind of sound like my angry, impatient inner voice that speaks up in my brain from time to time. Your words have been mine. However, the personal and ministerial cost of making drastic changes at this time would be exorbitant.

Yes, at times my caution feels like cowardice. With so much at stake though, my family, ministry, and lifetime relationships, I find it difficult to make a quick move. Until then we do not practice the condemning tactics of some others and just do our best to love God and the souls in our area.

I can see the day approaching quickly when I will be forced to make a life altering decision. My only consolation is knowing that there are many who are in my shoes right now.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I love your first paragraph!

All of the UPC isn't this way though. In the UPC church I came into after God saved me in England....the pastor never taught on "standards"...ever! He was the most Christlike person I have ever known! Didn't speak an evil word against anyone, not even those who left the church, spoke evil of him, and took others with them. Some UPC pastors allow the Holy Spirit to do His work in setting personal convictions.

That is awesome you have had great experiences within the UPC. I've had a little of both. All my experiences fostered too much dependency upon the church, rules or regulations of man. For the first 31 years of my life, my father was my pastor, the most loving man one could ever meet, but I still don't believe he was right. I later had another pastor who was loving and patient with people...but still don't believe the general structure of the things are correct, although some showed love, there is too much control of man.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by On The Wheel

...we have been guilty of complicating the message beyond the original intent. We have been bewitched, as were the Galatians. It seems to me that the hoops we require our newly born babes to jump through have become deterrents to their spiritual growth. When they learn the truth of our traditions, many become disillusioned and leave, some back to the world and others to other churches.

Such honesty! I recall a conversation with some on this forum who took the stand that former Pentecostals ("backsliders") were completely to blame for their own spiritual stumbling and demise because ultimately, it boils down to choice. Perhaps that is so, but a quote comes to mind..."If gold rusts, what shall iron do."

In reality, what some may judge to be a spiritual death, may actually be rebirth. It is true that we do have the power of choice. The only regret I carry is that I didn't break away sooner.

Each must work out his own, but I sincerely believe that the Lord honors and blesses the honest heart. May God bless.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

The above was said in response to someone "encouraging them" that there are some people higher up in the UPC trying to point out the lies they force people to suck down. I am not sure why anyone would wait??? Unless you are still drinking the Kool-aid believing it is the only church that saves. (Not saying you believe this at all)

I can see looking for the right timing to leave, but not stick around because you want to STILL stay a part of an ORGANIZATION that doesn't even recognize the Body of Christ at large. A bunch of humans taking the place of God by deciding who is and isn't going to hell by their interpretation. An organization that treats people that love God, possibly more than them, worse than a stray dog they may find on the street.

How crazy is this? Some people are staying in a church pretending they believe stuff that isn't true. They are waiting for a group of men to make a decision for the whole UPC that releases them from living a lie. For your own sake, release yourself from the lie, don't wait on a group of men to decide what the Bible says today, so they can change it again tomorrow.

Why would you want to be a part of an organization that decides for you what the Bible says and what you can and can't do? It sounds a bit like how the Catholics used to live, where only the Priest could tell them what the Bible said.

Sorry, I guess this hit a nerve today. I am missing my family that thinks I am going to hell, because I don't go to their church. Yet, I know so many that are just living a lie in that church, because they don't want to have to experience the same hell they are required to put me through.

My wife compares the UPC to a Mafia family.
Once in, you're pretty well stuck
and if you try to leave, they'll put out a hit on you

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Is this the saying based on The Fonz jumping over the shark on water skies?

Yup!

[Sam]

"Hier stehe ich" ("Here I stand"), a statement attributed to Martin Luther

The enforcement of the ban on the 95 Theses fell to the secular authorities. On 18 April 1521, Luther appeared as ordered before the Diet of Worms. This was a general assembly of the estates of the Holy Roman Empire that took place in Worms, a town on the Rhine. It was conducted from 28 January to 25 May 1521, with Emperor Charles V presiding. Prince Frederick III, Elector of Saxony, obtained a safe conduct for Luther to and from the meeting.

Johann Eck, speaking on behalf of the Empire as assistant of the Archbishop of Trier, presented Luther with copies of his writings laid out on a table and asked him if the books were his, and whether he stood by their contents. Luther confirmed he was their author, but requested time to think about the answer to the second question. He prayed, consulted friends, and gave his response the next day:

Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.

Luther is sometimes also quoted as saying: "Here I stand. I can do no other". Recent scholars consider the evidence for these words to be unreliable, since they were inserted before "May God help me" only in later versions of the speech and not recorded in witness accounts of the proceedings.

Over the next five days, private conferences were held to determine Luther's fate. The Emperor presented the final draft of the Diet of Worms on 25 May 1521, declaring Luther an outlaw, banning his literature, and requiring his arrest: "We want him to be apprehended and punished as a notorious heretic." It also made it a crime for anyone in Germany to give Luther food or shelter. It permitted anyone to kill Luther without legal consequence.