??? Daniel chapter 7 "Oneness"??? - Page 3

mfblume · #21 07-09-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I will not forget the when. It happens immediately after the tribulation in both cases. Its inspired to show the second coming of the Son of Man is the same event as the coming of the Ancient of Days spoken by Daniel the Prophet.

I never said the WHEN is not important. The point is the issue of Oneness. WHEN has nothing to do with that point.

mfblume · #22 07-09-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think that what Mike was saying is that "WHEN" doesn't affect the "WHAT."

We have two subjects appearing simultaneously and being described in a fashion the doesn't really make any sense literally. The "Lamb" is simultaneously "in the midst of the elders" and "in the midst of the throne" when He approaches the throne.

That doesn't make any sense as a "visual actuality," as Mike puts it. It does make perfect sense as a word picture though. The "Lamb" is both human and Divine. The Lamb approaches the throne to do something, interacting with the One Who sits on the throne. Yet, the Lamb Himself is simultaneously identified as that One sitting on the throne.

It's an incredible word picture.

Right, and thanks.

OneAccord · #23 07-09-2010, 07:39 PM

In Dan 7, two entities are spoken of: The Ancient of Days (AOD) and "one likened unto the Son of Man." The AOD is given the same description of Jesus in Revelation so we know the AOD is Jesus. Who then is the Son of Man here? But note: it doesn't say "the Son of Man", but, rather "one likened to the Son of Man". Who is likened unto the Son of Man in the Scriptures? John wrote: " Beloved, now are we the Sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be, but, when He (Jesus) shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM". Those LIKE HIM are His people. The saints are those "likened unto the Son of Man". Dan. 7 bears this out in verses 13 and 14, then again in verse 18, where the SAINTS are specifically referred to as 1) "one like the Son of Man" ( v. 13) , 2) is given dominion over the earth (the NEW EARTH) -where the Book of Revelation refers to Gods people as Kings and priests) (v. 14), and 3. The SAINTS take possession of the earth for all eternity (v. 18) Does not the Bible tell us over and over again that Gods people will inherit the earth?

Psa 25:13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa 37:22 For [such as be] blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and [they that be] cursed of him shall be cut off.
Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Remember Jacobs dream, how angels traversed between earth and heaven? This was a revelation of the heavenly age, when the righteous will have access to the NEW HEAVEN (God's throne) and the NEW EARTH and will, in fact, reign and rule over the earth.

The saints are given dominion to reign on earth just as God intended for Adam to reign over the Garden of Eden.

So yes, the AOD is Jesus, who is the expressed (revealed) image of God, and the "one likened unto the Son of Man" is His saints. Read Dan. 7 again, particularly verses 9- 18. Think of "one likened the Son of Man" as the saints of God and see if this doesn't make sense and "jive" with what is written through the Bible, especially with Rev 21 and 22.

OneAccord · #24 07-09-2010, 07:53 PM

The verses in question (Dan. 7), I believe, refers to the coming Kingdom Age when Christ will riegn over the heavens for all eternity and the saints of God are given dominion over the earth for all of eternity, just as Goid intended with Adam and the human race in Genesis 1. I know some here do not believe in the 1000 year reign with Christ but, nonetheless, there it is in Revelation 20, where it says the righteous reign with Christ for 1000 years. That 1000 year reign, which I believe will be in Jerusalem (Zach 14), will be extended for all of eternity after the conclusion of the final conflict between Satan and the "camp of the saints" (Rev, 21:9). During the Kingdom Age, the saints will have dominion over the earth just as Dan. 7 clearly spells out.

As I see it, and with respect to those who may see another point of view, I don't see Dan. 7 as having anything to do with a Oneness veiw of the Godhead. In fact, if this were the case, it would seem to be a little problematic for the Oneness veiw of the Godhead, wouldn't it?

" I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." would read: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, JESUS came with the clouds of heaven, and came to JESUS, and they brought him near before him. To me that just make no sense. It doesn't "jive" with verse 18 which clearly says SAINTS.

Again, the term "one likened unto the Son of Man", IMO, can't be Jesus. He IS the Son of Man, not LIKE Him.

mfblume · #25 07-10-2010, 10:58 AM

Here is my view. I see the kingdom here now, and only becoming exponentially greater after the second coming. The picture of the Lord going to the throne to obtain the sealed book and obtain dominion in Rev 5 and Dan 7 is the picture of atonement. The High Priest alone could enter there. The lamb did not stay on the altar for 2000 years and looks forward still to standing as if he HAD BEEN (past tense) slain. He stood up the third day and entered the holiest of holies and obtained eternal life for us along with dominion. Rev 5:9-10 says that he made us kings and priests. PAST TENSE. We are already kings and priests. Rev 1:5-6 says the same blood that washed us also made us kings and priests. It is a done deal already.

The saints were made kings and priests by the Lamb's retrieval of the book according to Rev 5:10, and the saints had dominion and took away the dominion of the fourth beast because the Lord was given dominion from the Ancient of Days in Dan 7. Both pictures show vicarious sacrifice and taking of dominion for the saints.

Putting all this in a future millennium is never mentioned in those terms anywhere in scripture. That conclusion is based upon deriving conclusions. The fact is that if we look to the making of the saints into kings and priests in both Dan 7 and Rev 5 with power and dominion, and compare what the rest of the epistles teach about seating with Christ, we realize this has already been accomplished. And Paul prayed the eyes of our understanding be opened to see how the same power that put Christ ALREADY on the throne is towards us and made us sit together on THE THRONE in heavenly places already. Eph 1:18-22; 2:5-6.

The 1000 year reign is representative of the church age now.

I am already seated with Christ over everything IN THIS WORLD and the WORLD TO COME. If Jesus is not already on the throne of David, then He does not yet have ALL POWER in heaven AND EARTH,

THE KINGDOM HAS COME!

These views are not things we should divide over, though. Whew. I was amazed people make this a point of fellowship!!! It's just that some will enjoy KINGDOM LIVING NOW and others won't.

My thoughts, anyway.

Praxeas · #26 07-10-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

A friend wants to know how can this be "one".

Esther, this is a good example of taking a verse out of context. If you read the entire text Daniel asks for an interpretation, not being a Trinitarian he does not automatically understand this to be 2 Divine persons...

In the explanation Daniel is told that this depicts the saints of the most high God, not God the Son.

Dan 7:15 "As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.
Dan 7:16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 'These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.'
Dan 7:19 "Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet,
Dan 7:20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.
Dan 7:21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Praxeas · #27 07-10-2010, 01:11 PM

BTW, considering that this "son of man" is symbolic for the saints of God, this should serve as an example as to the high symbology of the visions GOd gives men, such as revelation

Esther · #28 07-10-2010, 02:12 PM

Thanks for all the great post.

She has never been to this site, but I am going to direct her to this thread.

You all have made some wonderful contributions.

Praxeas · #29 07-10-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

Thanks for all the great post.

She has never been to this site, but I am going to direct her to this thread.

You all have made some wonderful contributions.

Esther, do you see the context shows "son of man" does not refer to Jesus?

pelathais · #30 07-10-2010, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Here is my view. ...
THE KINGDOM HAS COME!

These views are not things we should divide over, though. Whew. I was amazed people make this a point of fellowship!!! It's just that some will enjoy KINGDOM LIVING NOW and others won't.

My thoughts, anyway.

I agree Mike - in the basic outline. However, Esther's question was just about two "subjects" appearing at the throne. And I use the word "subject" in the grammatical sense - as in the subject of a sentence is a noun.

The fact that two subjects appeared doesn't necessarily mean that two distinct "beings" (or Beings) are in view.