Speaking In Tongues Does Not Equal Salvation.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Lacey

Every person I've ever known to receive the Holy Ghost, always, without fail, spoke in another tongue. Seems that was also evident in the folks mentioned in the Bible who received it.

Lacey,
I am 70, and all my life I have been taught that Jesus gave to Peter the
keys to the kingdom. After instructing the apostles/disciples to go to
Jerusalem and tarry/wait until they be endued with power from on high.
And while they tarried/waited, suddenly the Holy Ghost was poured down
upon those 120 waiting, as Jesus had instructed. Peter preached the first
Pentecostal message. Peter said to repent, and be baptized every one of
you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and ye SHALL
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the Promise is unto you (Jewish
believers, and to your children (Jewish belivers children) and to all that
are afar off, even as many as the Lord your God shall call. He's still calling
today and we who were afar off have been brought nigh.

I not only was taught the above things, but found it to be Bibical!

This is all I have ever heard in the two churches I have attended in my
lifetime. We moved from the first church we attended, when I was 11 yrs.
old. We have lived in the present location for almost 60 yrs. My late parents
founded the church we have attended for almost 52 yrs. I am so thankful for
the simple message of Pentecost I have heard and believed. Paul told young
Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child though hast known the holy scriptures which are
able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith that is in Christ Jesus".

Could it be that those who were taught that you didn't have to do anything
but repent, believed that that was all they had to do. Why would you obey
anything else, if those who were supposed to be your teachers told you that
was all you had to do. I personally know a man who is older than I, who went
to our church and is presently attending a UPC some distance from here. They
retired and moved. But his Baptist mother so instilled in him that he was saved
and didn't need to speak with tongues, that he didn't pursue the Holy Ghost.
His wife came from a trinitarian background, heard the apostolic message of
Acts 2:38 many years ago, believed and obeyed it!That man so believed his
mother that he didn't feel he needed to do anything else. After all Momma said
he was saved!

YOU DON"T PURSUE tongues, you SEEK THE HOLY GHOST. If you want to
enter into the Kingdom of God, you MUST received the HOLY GHOST to do so.
For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace and
joy, in the HOLY GHOST!

My late paternal grandmother searched the scriptures daily and found that
someone had deceived her. The minister she had listened to, and her mother
had been a charter member for 48 yrs in that church, and she for 21 yrs. She
heard another minister preach another message. She got mad and was going
to prove him wrong UNTIL, she searched it out and found it was true. She left
Father and Mother's religion, forsook that church and obeyed the apostolic
plan of salvation. She found it was true and promptly obeyed. Her 15 yr old
son, my late father followed her in obeying this new message they had heard.
Grandma said she was forsaken at first, by her family members. They thought
she had lost her mind. Her mother sought God in secret prayer and He reveal-
ed Himself to her. She and her husband obeyed and followed. Many other of
her family. Grandma said she felt as if a great gulf seperated her from her
parents, etc. She said they could come to her, but she couldn't and wouldn't
go back to them.

I thank GOD for that decision made by my late paternal grandmother. In a
way, she made a decision which has blessed many generations of her family.
and mine. Of course we did have to decide individually for ourselves when we
first believed!

Anything less than FULL TRUTH is error!

If someone, in FAITH, TRULY repents, is baptized in Jesus Name, they will
receive the Holy Ghost and it will be evidenced by the Spirit giving the utter-
ance. The utterance (sound, evidence) that they have indeed received the
Spirit. It is the Promise of the Father!

Let God be true and every man a liar. If there is a problem, it is with man,
Not GOD!

Lacey, like you, I have never seen anyone that received the Holy Ghost that
did not speak in tongues, when the Spirit came. There was JOY, from the
recipiant to the attendants. Those attending the New Birth!
The signs follow the believer, not the other way around.

Falla39

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Lacey, like you, I have never seen anyone that received the Holy Ghost that
did not speak in tongues, when the Spirit came. There was JOY, from the
recipiant to the attendants. Those attending the New Birth!
The signs follow the believer, not the other way around.

Falla39

If you don't mind I would like to use this portion of your post to say something...

I had mentioned before that if our paradigm is that one has not received the Holy Ghost until they have spoken in tongues then this will be what we recall because each person who did not speak in tongues is deemed to have not received the Holy Ghost. It is a self fulfilling teaching.

But my thought is this. I have seen people go to the altar... mean people... hateful people... terribly sinful people.

I have seen them "receive a blessing" at the altar crying and repenting before God.
I have seen people get up from that altar changed.
I have seen an attitude in them and on their faces I had never seen before.
I have seen a grumpy and hateful person all of a sudden become a happy and loving person.
I have seen a person who smoked and drank and could never give it up quit that night.

But they didn't speak in tongues.

And people congratulated them on their "blessing" and told them... you keep praying and God will fill you with the Holy Ghost. They were dismayed at this because they thought they DID receive the Holy Ghost.

Oh no... they are told. You received a blessing but when you receive the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues and it will be so much better than what you received tonight.

I have seen them try to receive this Holy Ghost and finally quit from such deep discouragement that they couldn't receive the Holy Ghost and when they attended for the last time the record still stood... nobody ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I saw lots of signs... some even biblically explicit.

I saw love one to another.
I saw a miraculous ability to quit things that had held them captive for years.
I saw a change in spirit, attitude and nature.
I saw someone who was not the same as they used to be.
I saw someone who had received power after that this "blessing" had come upon them.

But since no one saw tongues doubt was planted in their heart and it destroyed them.

But... at the end of the day... it can still be said by those who are so fond of saying it... In all my years of living for God no one has ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I think we really need to take another look at this doctrine.

[MawMaw]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Lacey,
I am 70, and all my life I have been taught that Jesus gave to Peter the
keys to the kingdom. After instructing the apostles/disciples to go to
Jerusalem and tarry/wait until they be endued with power from on high.
And while they tarried/waited, suddenly the Holy Ghost was poured down
upon those 120 waiting, as Jesus had instructed. Peter preached the first
Pentecostal message. Peter said to repent, and be baptized every one of
you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and ye SHALL
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the Promise is unto you (Jewish
believers, and to your children (Jewish belivers children) and to all that
are afar off, even as many as the Lord your God shall call. He's still calling
today and we who were afar off have been brought nigh.

I not only was taught the above things, but found it to be Bibical!

This is all I have ever heard in the two churches I have attended in my
lifetime. We moved from the first church we attended, when I was 11 yrs.
old. We have lived in the present location for almost 60 yrs. My late parents
founded the church we have attended for almost 52 yrs. I am so thankful for
the simple message of Pentecost I have heard and believed. Paul told young
Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child though hast known the holy scriptures which are
able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith that is in Christ Jesus".

Could it be that those who were taught that you didn't have to do anything
but repent, believed that that was all they had to do. Why would you obey
anything else, if those who were supposed to be your teachers told you that
was all you had to do. I personally know a man who is older than I, who went
to our church and is presently attending a UPC some distance from here. They
retired and moved. But his Baptist mother so instilled in him that he was saved
and didn't need to speak with tongues, that he didn't pursue the Holy Ghost.
His wife came from a trinitarian background, heard the apostolic message of
Acts 2:38 many years ago, believed and obeyed it!That man so believed his
mother that he didn't feel he needed to do anything else. After all Momma said
he was saved!

YOU DON"T PURSUE tongues, you SEEK THE HOLY GHOST. If you want to
enter into the Kingdom of God, you MUST received the HOLY GHOST to do so.
For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace and
joy, in the HOLY GHOST!

My late paternal grandmother searched the scriptures daily and found that
someone had deceived her. The minister she had listened to, and her mother
had been a charter member for 48 yrs in that church, and she for 21 yrs. She
heard another minister preach another message. She got mad and was going
to prove him wrong UNTIL, she searched it out and found it was true. She left
Father and Mother's religion, forsook that church and obeyed the apostolic
plan of salvation. She found it was true and promptly obeyed. Her 15 yr old
son, my late father followed her in obeying this new message they had heard.
Grandma said she was forsaken at first, by her family members. They thought
she had lost her mind. Her mother sought God in secret prayer and He reveal-
ed Himself to her. She and her husband obeyed and followed. Many other of
her family. Grandma said she felt as if a great gulf seperated her from her
parents, etc. She said they could come to her, but she couldn't and wouldn't
go back to them.

I thank GOD for that decision made by my late paternal grandmother. In a
way, she made a decision which has blessed many generations of her family.
and mine. Of course we did have to decide individually for ourselves when we
first believed!

Anything less than FULL TRUTH is error!

If someone, in FAITH, TRULY repents, is baptized in Jesus Name, they will
receive the Holy Ghost and it will be evidenced by the Spirit giving the utter-
ance. The utterance (sound, evidence) that they have indeed received the
Spirit. It is the Promise of the Father!

Let God be true and every man a liar. If there is a problem, it is with man,
Not GOD!

Lacey, like you, I have never seen anyone that received the Holy Ghost that
did not speak in tongues, when the Spirit came. There was JOY, from the
recipiant to the attendants. Those attending the New Birth!
The signs follow the believer, not the other way around.

Falla39

Wow! Awesome post Sis Falla!! So so very true! Thanks!!

[BroGary]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Lacey,
I am 70, and all my life I have been taught that Jesus gave to Peter the
keys to the kingdom. After instructing the apostles/disciples to go to
Jerusalem and tarry/wait until they be endued with power from on high.
And while they tarried/waited, suddenly the Holy Ghost was poured down
upon those 120 waiting, as Jesus had instructed. Peter preached the first
Pentecostal message. Peter said to repent, and be baptized every one of
you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins and ye SHALL
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the Promise is unto you (Jewish
believers, and to your children (Jewish belivers children) and to all that
are afar off, even as many as the Lord your God shall call. He's still calling
today and we who were afar off have been brought nigh.

I not only was taught the above things, but found it to be Bibical!

This is all I have ever heard in the two churches I have attended in my
lifetime. We moved from the first church we attended, when I was 11 yrs.
old. We have lived in the present location for almost 60 yrs. My late parents
founded the church we have attended for almost 52 yrs. I am so thankful for
the simple message of Pentecost I have heard and believed. Paul told young
Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:15
"And that from a child though hast known the holy scriptures which are
able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith that is in Christ Jesus".

Could it be that those who were taught that you didn't have to do anything
but repent, believed that that was all they had to do. Why would you obey
anything else, if those who were supposed to be your teachers told you that
was all you had to do. I personally know a man who is older than I, who went
to our church and is presently attending a UPC some distance from here. They
retired and moved. But his Baptist mother so instilled in him that he was saved
and didn't need to speak with tongues, that he didn't pursue the Holy Ghost.
His wife came from a trinitarian background, heard the apostolic message of
Acts 2:38 many years ago, believed and obeyed it!That man so believed his
mother that he didn't feel he needed to do anything else. After all Momma said
he was saved!

YOU DON"T PURSUE tongues, you SEEK THE HOLY GHOST. If you want to
enter into the Kingdom of God, you MUST received the HOLY GHOST to do so.
For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, peace and
joy, in the HOLY GHOST!

My late paternal grandmother searched the scriptures daily and found that
someone had deceived her. The minister she had listened to, and her mother
had been a charter member for 48 yrs in that church, and she for 21 yrs. She
heard another minister preach another message. She got mad and was going
to prove him wrong UNTIL, she searched it out and found it was true. She left
Father and Mother's religion, forsook that church and obeyed the apostolic
plan of salvation. She found it was true and promptly obeyed. Her 15 yr old
son, my late father followed her in obeying this new message they had heard.
Grandma said she was forsaken at first, by her family members. They thought
she had lost her mind. Her mother sought God in secret prayer and He reveal-
ed Himself to her. She and her husband obeyed and followed. Many other of
her family. Grandma said she felt as if a great gulf seperated her from her
parents, etc. She said they could come to her, but she couldn't and wouldn't
go back to them.

I thank GOD for that decision made by my late paternal grandmother. In a
way, she made a decision which has blessed many generations of her family.
and mine. Of course we did have to decide individually for ourselves when we
first believed!

Anything less than FULL TRUTH is error!

If someone, in FAITH, TRULY repents, is baptized in Jesus Name, they will
receive the Holy Ghost and it will be evidenced by the Spirit giving the utter-
ance. The utterance (sound, evidence) that they have indeed received the
Spirit. It is the Promise of the Father!

Let God be true and every man a liar. If there is a problem, it is with man,
Not GOD!

Lacey, like you, I have never seen anyone that received the Holy Ghost that
did not speak in tongues, when the Spirit came. There was JOY, from the
recipiant to the attendants. Those attending the New Birth!
The signs follow the believer, not the other way around.

Falla39

Amen, and some may say people have had a change in their lives without speaking in tongues, but even people who start following a false religion, even Islam, can have a change in their life and stop drinking, ect., so just having a change is not evidence enough, God has a specific initial evidence that would leave no doubt. Repentence brings a change, but repentence alone will not save anyone, they must also be born of the water and the Spirit.

It is like unto when a baby is conceived and is like when the seed of the Word is germinated by faith, but the actual birth is deemed successful when you hear the initial evidence of the new born baby crying, likewise we know a new "babe in Christ" is born of the Spirit when we hear them joyfully "crying" out in tongues :-)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

If you don't mind I would like to use this portion of your post to say something...

I had mentioned before that if our paradigm is that one has not received the Holy Ghost until they have spoken in tongues then this will be what we recall because each person who did not speak in tongues is deemed to have not received the Holy Ghost. It is a self fulfilling teaching.

But my thought is this. I have seen people go to the altar... mean people... hateful people... terribly sinful people.

I have seen them "receive a blessing" at the altar crying and repenting before God.
I have seen people get up from that altar changed.
I have seen an attitude in them and on their faces I had never seen before.
I have seen a grumpy and hateful person all of a sudden become a happy and loving person.
I have seen a person who smoked and drank and could never give it up quit that night.

But they didn't speak in tongues.

And people congratulated them on their "blessing" and told them... you keep praying and God will fill you with the Holy Ghost. They were dismayed at this because they thought they DID receive the Holy Ghost.

Oh no... they are told. You received a blessing but when you receive the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues and it will be so much better than what you received tonight.

I have seen them try to receive this Holy Ghost and finally quit from such deep discouragement that they couldn't receive the Holy Ghost and when they attended for the last time the record still stood... nobody ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I saw lots of signs... some even biblically explicit.

I saw love one to another.
I saw a miraculous ability to quit things that had held them captive for years.
I saw a change in spirit, attitude and nature.
I saw someone who was not the same as they used to be.
I saw someone who had received power after that this "blessing" had come upon them.

But since no one saw tongues doubt was planted in their heart and it destroyed them.

But... at the end of the day... it can still be said by those who are so fond of saying it... In all my years of living for God no one has ever received the Holy Ghost without speaking in tongues.

I think we really need to take another look at this doctrine.

And we are to go on emotional experiences of people instead of standing on what the Word of God is saying? I'm not willing to do that.

It is all about the heart which is spoken of in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 - likening our lives/heart to those of the wayside, stony places, thorns, and good ground. Only God knows, at the end of the day, as some water, some plant, but God gives the increase. That could take years.

The Word of God still stands in the midst of this. I'm not going to interpret the Word of God on the experiences of various people, unless, that experience can be found to line up with the Word of God.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

And we are to go on emotional experiences of people instead of standing on what the Word of God is saying? I'm not willing to do that.

It is all about the heart which is spoken of in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 - likening our lives/heart to those of the wayside, stony places, thorns, and good ground. Only God knows, at the end of the day, as some water, some plant, but God gives the increase. That could take years.

The Word of God still stands in the midst of this. I'm not going to interpret the Word of God on the experiences of various people, unless, that experience can be found to line up with the Word of God.

First... no explicit word of God has been offered. Only a verse here and a verse there packed with presuppositions.

Secondly... It isn't emotion when someone sees real change in someone who 2 hours earlier would not have had the power to make these changes. Something changed in them that they were not able to do before. They showed signs that the Bible actually DOES say is a sign of His children.

There is nothing emotionally based about that example. That is real change in a real person condescended upon by people who can't show real scriptures for their predisposed disposition.

And... true... only God knows. But there are many more than Him willing to make the judgment in the mean time.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

First... no explicit word of God has been offered. Only a verse here and a verse there packed with presuppositions.

Secondly... It isn't emotion when someone sees real change in someone who 2 hours earlier would not have had the power to make these changes. Something changed in them that they were not able to do before. They showed signs that the Bible actually DOES say is a sign of His children.

There is nothing emotionally based about that example. That is real change in a real person condescended upon by people who can't show real scriptures for their predisposed disposition.

And... true... only God knows. But there are many more than Him willing to make the judgment in the mean time.

Something changed in me when I repented and was baptized. It was because I "meant" that I was truly sorry and I didn't want to go back and be what I was. I didn't receive the Holy Ghost for three months, and I know that I was not saved or could have remain saved without it.

Now, I do believe that people can be delayed in receiving the Spirit of God by not focusing and teaching correctly on true repentance and what is involved in baptism. Focusing on tongues is a huge deterrent, IMO, unless that person already understands enough to seek God and not tongues.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Something changed in me when I repented and was baptized. It was because I "meant" that I was truly sorry and I didn't want to go back and be what I was. I didn't receive the Holy Ghost for three months, and I know that I was not saved or could have remain saved without it.

Now, I do believe that people can be delayed in receiving the Spirit of God by not focusing and teaching correctly on true repentance and what is involved in baptism. Focusing on tongues is a huge deterrent, IMO, unless that person already understands enough to seek God and not tongues.

So this person is unsaved still... until they speak in tongues?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

So this person is unsaved still... until they speak in tongues?

They pat answer as PO has expressed is that they have not TRULY REPENTED.
A view expressed by the likes of Bernard as well.

There is some sin they have confessed or "left" ... the quickening from above dependent on one's righteousness, contrition and self-will and perhaps ability to recall and list previous sins. Focus, Danielson.

Perhaps if they repent like Borat was instructed to by Godwin they will speak in other tongues?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

So this person is unsaved still... until they speak in tongues?

Well, Digging, we have a couple of things going on here. Almost everyone that says you don't need to speak in tongues as initial evidence are, in fact, tongue talkers - now as we speak or at one time or another. I find that to be interesting or, possibly, just alarming.

I just don't find the scriptures speaking on the infilling of the Holy Ghost as being identified by anything else. And, Romans says that if you have not the Spirit of Christ you are none of His. That means that you cannot belong to Him and, therefore, it's looking like a salvational issue.