Prophesying Versus Speaking In Tongues

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

GREAT THREAD D4T.

I think so too. It is more of an "I'm thinking out loud" type thread but I'm enjoying it.

Today my wife & daughter talked on this a little bit and the thought we discussed was this...

Peter said "this is that".

The THAT he spoke of was Joel's prophecy.

Joel said...

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Nowhere in that discourse is tongues mentioned. When Peter said this is that what we have been taught would lead us to believe that Joel had said "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall speak in tongues." because of the heavy emphasis on the tongues. It's like nothing else exists.

But... I am headed to the church for Praise Team Practice. So I need to get.

But I am enjoying the volley of ideas that my "thinking out loud" is inviting.

[Digging4Truth]

I only had the term Uniquely up for a moment and I edited it out. Please see my post as it appears now and I would like to hear your thoughts on what is there.

But... I will certainly not fail to respond to your thoughts though.

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about Acts 2? They were overheard praising God in tongues. That is not prophesying.

Why isn't praising God prophesying?

Here is Zacharias' prophesy that he gave when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophesied.

Luke 1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luke 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luke 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luke 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Luke 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Luke 1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

That isn't what we would call a prophesy. But God called it one. God said it was a prophesy and yet it declares the wonderful works of God.

On the day of pentecostal they declared the wonderful works of God in the language of all that were there. And when they did declare the wonderful works of God Peter said... this is that spoken of by the prophet Joel...

And Joel said that on that day... your sons and your daughters shall prophesy... and they did.... in the tongue of jews from all over the word even though there were all from Galilee.

[pelathais]

In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum, but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqw...page&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum, but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqw...page&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

I had never heard this before.

I had not seen this demonstrated in the OT examples of prophesying nor with Zacharias' prophecy. I will have to look into this. Thanks for the info.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the ancient world "to prophesy" was synonymous with "speaking in an unknown tongue."

The Egyptian courtier and servant of Pharaoh, Wenamun, describes this phenomena among some "prophets" that he encounters in the Levant region near Byblos in about the year 1112 BC.

The priestess of Apollo at the famous Oracle of Delphi famously "spoke in tongues" when she "prophesied" and an interpretation by a priest was required. A similar scene is depicted in the recent film "300" showing the Spartan leader Leonidas consulting an oracle who "speaks in tongues" which is subsequently "interpreted" by the priests.

There has been a lengthy discussion of this topic in scholarly journals like Veritas Testamentum, but you have to pay to read the whole thing or attend a university that provides a subscription. JSTOR provides a fairly good read here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356093 for free. There is a larger - though somewhat dated - discussion here: http://books.google.com/books?id=sqw...page&q&f=false

To "prophesy" in the ancient world was the same outwardly observable phenomena as our own "speaking in tongues."

Yet in the Bible prophecy seems to be intelligible. I don't really think pagan sources are a good endorsement of what we call "speaking in tongues". In fact, on the surface it seems to lend credence to those who claim the whole practice is occultic

[walkbyfaith]

these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by walkbyfaith

these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.

Entire passage:


15 And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. 16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by walkbyfaith

these signs shall follow them that believe,they shall speak with other tongues.

I love it when quotes like this one come into a conversation like this. It reminds me to go and study that series of verses.

First... the quote sure tells something doesn't it?

Here is the scripture.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

And there are other things that follow this verse that those who believe will do. But we remember... they shall speak with other tongues. One would think that casting out devils would be as popular and as prevalent as tongues but we emphasize tongues so much this is where we focus.

But... Let's take a look at the discourse. I need to get to church so this will have to be short.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Jesus said go and tell the world about this gospel.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He that believeth and is baptized will be saved. If you go out and tell this gospel to people... and they believe it... the will be saved.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Now this is the part that makes me smile. I know what I have been told this series of scriptures say. I know that I have believed it without even studying it myself. These three verses together say (as I have been told) that when you're saved... you'll speak in tongues.

But let's step back and just take a look.

Preach the gospel.
If they believe the gospel they will be saved.
These signs shall follow them that believe. Now... if they believe... they are saved. And the signs are signs that follow saved people.

You disagree don't you?

Well let's look again. Not even worrying about the fact that what I just said is what the scripture said...

These signs shall follow those that believe.
1. They shall cast out devils. Now tell me. Who of you has an expectation that a possible sign that someone has just been saved is that they turn around and cast out a devil? Nobody. Nobody looks for that. If that happened we'd all stare at each other and say... WHAT? But yet that is the FIRST sign given in a list that should all pertain to one another isn't it?
2. They shall speak with other tongues. etc.
3. They shall take up serpents.
4. If they drink poison it won't hurt them.

I can see it now... Come on brother... you about to receive the Holy Ghost... and now we know... he is saved... because he drank poison, handled a snake and cast out a devil.

We all know that every other thing in that list has nothing to do with initial evidence but we cherry pick tongues and use this scripture to back up that notion. I know... because I've done it. As a matter of fact... I've done it up until... this post. But study opened my eyes.

[faithit166]

1 corinthians 14;4 he that speaketh in an inknown tongue edifieth himself,but he that prophesieth edifieth the church (2 different things)1 corinthians 14;22 wherefore tongues are for a sign not to them that believe but to them that believe not, but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe.39 wherefore brethren covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak in tongues

[jfrog]

I look at it this way:

Tongues is how some prophecy is spoken.
Prophecy is what is spoken.

If a prophecy is given in tongues then it should be interpreted and if it is interpreted then it edifies the church just as much as a prophecy not given in tongues would.