Using secular songs to open service for icebreaker

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Thanks for your deeply thoughtful and revelatory insights. Yawn.

No one said the Holy Spirit doesn't draw anymore, Toadie. In America, 17% regularly attend church services. You think something just might be wrong about sticking with 1950's strategies?

We absolutely have problems. The problem isn't singing out of the hymnal or singing songs written by people who claim to be Christians. The problem is that the churches aren't hungry for the things of God, but are filled with the luxuaries of this world. The people are too busy with recreation, with secular careers, and with entertainment to actually give a care about their lost neighbors.

And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance. They sure had huge meetings, but look at the fruit of that movement. It created a christianity that time proved to be dead. The "seeker" movement is simply this generations version of that earlier version of watered down Christianity to make it appealing to the masses.

Furthermore, the gospel is NOT for the majority of people. What percentage of church attendence did they have in the first century Roman Empire, or Second century? When the majority of people attended church the church entered the Dark Ages. Which is what would happen again if there was a huge influx of carnal unrepentant people who joined the church and called themselves Christians without being born again. The very thing most of these seeker friendly churches are attempting to do.

I am 100% for huge gospel meeting. I love the idea of preaching in stadiums filled with people. I would to God that all people would at LEAST listen to the gospel. But the problem is the only way to get the HUGE crowds is by watering down the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself had huge crowds, but He was quite clear that it was one thing to be in the multitude, and another to be a disciple.

While I would love to see an 80% or 90% church attendance rate, it will never be. Jesus didn't say the way is straight and the gate is narrow in vain. We shouldn't ever withold the gospel from anyone, or pre-judge them. The gospel is for everyone, but the fact is that if we present the TRUE gospel, the majority are going to reject it. Its sad, but true.

Speaking of which, why not use the Metallica song "Sad but True" in an effort to spread the gospel? I mean if we're going to be relevant, right?

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

We absolutely have problems. The problem isn't singing out of the hymnal or singing songs written by people who claim to be Christians. The problem is that the churches aren't hungry for the things of God, but are filled with the luxuaries of this world. The people are too busy with recreation, with secular careers, and with entertainment to actually give a care about their lost neighbors.

And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance. They sure had huge meetings, but look at the fruit of that movement. It created a christianity that time proved to be dead. The "seeker" movement is simply this generations version of that earlier version of watered down Christianity to make it appealing to the masses.

Furthermore, the gospel is NOT for the majority of people. What percentage of church attendence did they have in the first century Roman Empire, or Second century? When the majority of people attended church the church entered the Dark Ages. Which is what would happen again if there was a huge influx of carnal unrepentant people who joined the church and called themselves Christians without being born again. The very thing most of these seeker friendly churches are attempting to do.

I am 100% for huge gospel meeting. I love the idea of preaching in stadiums filled with people. I would to God that all people would at LEAST listen to the gospel. But the problem is the only way to get the HUGE crowds is by watering down the message of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself had huge crowds, but He was quite clear that it was one thing to be in the multitude, and another to be a disciple.

While I would love to see an 80% or 90% church attendance rate, it will never be. Jesus didn't say the way is straight and the gate is narrow in vain. We shouldn't ever withold the gospel from anyone, or pre-judge them. The gospel is for everyone, but the fact is that if we present the TRUE gospel, the majority are going to reject it. Its sad, but true.

Speaking of which, why not use the Metallica song "Sad but True" in an effort to spread the gospel? I mean if we're going to be relevant, right?

There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement.

Us four, no more. Enjoy your three companions.

[Jack Shephard]

Kaaaboom......Something just blew up in here!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement.

Us four, no more. Enjoy your three companions.

I did not mean to offend you in anyway Mr. SMith. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments. I fail to see where they were wrong or arrogant. I certainly don't pretend to be infallible, but I think you too would agree that modern American Christianity has failed to live up to the standard of Biblical Christianity.

If we agree with this, then we must identify a cause. And I think it is quite clear that the cause is primarily a watered down gospel. I am not the only one to arrive at this conclusion. EVERY writer I have read has echoed similar statements. I have been pleasently suprised to see the call amongst trinitarians for getting back to a Bible based message. Among those who have made a call to do away with superflous Christianity are DA Carson, Warren Wieserbe, William Barclay, and John MacArthur. In fact MacArthurs quote struck me as so accurate when I read it about a week ago I put in on my sig line. Certainly all of these bretheren are not in favor of an "us for and no more" Christianity.

People are promising sinners the very thing Jesus NEVER did. They are essentially preaching to them a gospel of God providing for them, which creates churches filled with people interested in what God can do for them, rather than what they can offer God.

Romans 12:1 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

They are intersted more in what they can receive from God, that from what they can give in His service, and for the futherance of the gospel. However, when Jesus encountered this type of "Christianity", a people completely willing to follow Jesus, as long as committment and self denial wasn't part of the message, He didn't go along with it, but in fact pointed our its in ability to bring ture salvation:

John 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled .

Jesus didn't seem to be interested in softening His message for the sake of the multitudes. I'm not going to quote all of Jesus message in John 6, I'm sure most are familiar with it. But it didn't get any softer, by the end of the chapter we read:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away ? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

In fact, if we read through the gospels, we will see that essentially everytime that the multitudes followed Jesus, He made a call for true discipleship and was left with only a small group.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ?

The ONLY thing that matters is salvation. Therefore if our message isn't resulting in Christianity AS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DEFINED ITthen our message doesn't matter, doesn't make a difference, and is useless, no matter how big of a church WE build. There are masters of marketing in the church culture, but an expresso machine and nice technology doth noth a disciple make. The church isn't Starbucks, some seem to have the attitude that the more we resemble the coffee shop, the shopping mall, and the local fitness center, the more effective we will be in presenting the gospel. But the gospel message can never be divorced from the message of Jesus himself. It was a message of love, see John 3:16, see Luke 15 :1-7. But also a message of committment.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned , and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying , This man began to build , and was not able to finish

Not too many seeker churches preaching to people that they CANNOT be Jesus' disciples if their not willing to completely and total commitment their life to Him. Here again we see GREAT MULTITUDES, but the multitudes weren't disciples, they were just multitudes. If there are churches aiming to prove that a stipped down Christianity "works", thats not a new revelation. It has always been so. The problem is a user friendly chistianity is not a biblical chrisitanity.

The call to receive the gospel must ALWAYS result in an admittance of guilt for sin, and a conscience choice to REPENT of those sins and fall on the grace of God:

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying , Repent ye : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach , and to say , Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

We can be assured that Jesus didn't have a different meaning of repentance than that of John.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish . 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish

In Luke 9 :57-62 three different people cam to follow Jesus and all were turned away. Jesus didn't restrict any of them from following Him, He simply let them know the sacrifice involved, and it was too much. Jesus didn't cut them off, they disqualified themselves. Yet today, we accept people on their terms into Chrisitanity. I maintain such an approach is not Biblical Chrisitianity:

Luke 9:57 And it came to pass , that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest . 58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said , Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61 And another also said , Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell , which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?

I will close this post with a quote from William Barclay concerning a Mark 8:34,35

"There is the almost startling honesty of Jesus. No one could ever say that He was induced to follow Jesus by false pretences. Jesus NEVER TRIED TO BRIBE men by the offer of the easy way. He did not offer men peace, he offered them glory. To tell a man he must be ready to take up a cross was to tell him he must be ready to be regarded as a criminal and to die.......

Garibaldi, the great Italian patriot, appealed for recruits in these terms: I offer neaither pay, nor quarters, nor provisions; I offer hunger, thirst, forced marches, battles, and death. Let him who loves his country in his heart, and not with his lips only, follow me.

Jesus never sought to lure men to Him by the offer of an easy wa, he sought to challenge them. He cam not to make life easy, but to make men great...."~William Barclay, Gospel of Mark pg. 201-202

[aegsm76]

"There's so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to start. There is, at least, one thing you said that really makes me angry. Really angry. It's pious, spiritually condescending, and completely WRONG. I speak of,"And paradoxically this is the result of the first generation of "seeker sensative" church which told people they could become Christians essentially without comittment or repentance."Jason, you don't know what the blue blazes you're talking about. If that's really the way you think, I'll shift my focus to talking to someone else. That statement hurts, it's wrong, it's arrogant and judgmental, and you have zero experience with which to make that statement"

Why don't you just state what is wrong with the statement, instead of issuing an emotional reply?
I am not sure with what you see wrong with his point or post?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Can we use this in church ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Opq2...eature=related

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I did not mean to offend you in anyway Mr. SMith. Nevertheless, I stand by my comments. I fail to see where they were wrong or arrogant. I certainly don't pretend to be infallible, but I think you too would agree that modern American Christianity has failed to live up to the standard of Biblical Christianity.

If we agree with this, then we must identify a cause. And I think it is quite clear that the cause is primarily a watered down gospel. I am not the only one to arrive at this conclusion. EVERY writer I have read has echoed similar statements.

People are promising sinners the very thing Jesus NEVER did. They are essentially preaching to them a gospel of God providing for them, which creates churches filled with people interested in what God can do for them, rather than what they can offer God.

Romans 12:1 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

They are intersted more in what they can receive from God, that from what they can give in His service, and for the futherance of the gospel. However, when Jesus encountered this type of "Christianity", a people completely willing to follow Jesus, as long as committment and self denial wasn't part of the message, He didn't go along with it, but in fact pointed our its in ability to bring ture salvation:

John 6:24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 26 Jesus answered them and said , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled .

Jesus didn't seem to be interested in softening His message for the sake of the multitudes. I'm not going to quote all of Jesus message in John 6, I'm sure most are familiar with it. But it didn't get any softer, by the end of the chapter we read:

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away ? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

In fact, if we read through the gospels, we will see that essentially everytime that the multitudes followed Jesus, He made a call for true discipleship and was left with only a small group.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ?

The ONLY thing that matters is salvation. Therefore if our message isn't resulting in Christianity AS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF DEFINED ITthen our message doesn't matter, doesn't make a difference, and is useless, no matter how big of a church WE build. There are masters of marketing in the church culture, but an expresso machine and nice technology doth noth a disciple make. The church isn't Starbucks, some seem to have the attitude that the more we resemble the coffee shop, the shopping mall, and the local fitness center, the more effective we will be in presenting the gospel. But the gospel message can never be divorced from the message of Jesus himself. It was a message of love, see John 3:16, see Luke 15 :1-7. But also a message of committment.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned , and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying , This man began to build , and was not able to finish

Not too many seeker churches preaching to people that they CANNOT be Jesus' disciples if their not willing to completely and total commitment their life to Him. Here again we see GREAT MULTITUDES, but the multitudes weren't disciples, they were just multitudes. If there are churches aiming to prove that a stipped down Christianity "works", thats not a new revelation. It has always been so. The problem is a user friendly chistianity is not a biblical chrisitanity.

The call to receive the gospel must ALWAYS result in an admittance of guilt for sin, and a conscience choice to REPENT of those sins and fall on the grace of God:

Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying , Repent ye : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach , and to say , Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

We can be assured that Jesus didn't have a different meaning of repentance than that of John.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish . 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent , ye shall all likewise perish

In Luke 9 :57-62 three different people cam to follow Jesus and all were turned away. Jesus didn't restrict any of them from following Him, He simply let them know the sacrifice involved, and it was too much. Jesus didn't cut them off, they disqualified themselves. Yet today, we accept people on their terms into Chrisitanity. I maintain such an approach is not Biblical Chrisitianity:

Luke 9:57 And it came to pass , that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest . 58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said , Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61 And another also said , Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell , which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back , is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?

I will close this post with a quote from William Barclay concerning a Mark 8:34,35

"There is the almost startling honesty of Jesus. No one could ever say that He was induced to follow Jesus by false pretences. Jesus NEVER TRIED TO BRIBE men by the offer of the easy way. He did not offer men peace, he offered them glory. To tell a man he must be ready to take up a cross was to tell him he must be ready to be regarded as a criminal and to die.......

Garibaldi, the great Italian patriot, appealed for recruits in these terms: I offer neaither pay, nor quarters, nor provisions; I offer hunger, thirst, forced marches, battles, and death. Let him who loves his country in his heart, and not with his lips only, follow me.

Jesus never sought to lure men to Him by the offer of an easy wa, he sought to challenge them. He cam not to make life easy, but to make men great...."~William Barclay, Gospel of Mark pg. 201-202

Not even gonna read it. You are COMPLETELY uninformed and have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You really do think none of these churches, including mine, understand sacrifice, don't you? You have no idea. You have no accurate information. You have no facts. You have no evidence. You have no idea what Seeker churches do. All you have is your own little courtroom where you cast judgment on anyone who doesn't do things the way you like them done.

You didn't offend me, you hurt me. I'm tired of pouring out my guts to you, being readily available to you when you needed help, praying for you over the phone on my vacation and helping you through your tough times while I carried luggage to my hotel room, and continuing to hear from you how people like me don't believe in commitment.

Stop judging me and others like me!!!! You have no right.

"Us four, no more." Enjoy your three companions. I'm done with this. I have better things to do.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Kaaaboom......Something just blew up in here!

Yep, my patience.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

Yep, my patience.

LOOK OUT EVERYONE!!!!!!!!! Shards of a fractured patience are flying around and you might get slapped in the head by a piece. Jason, make sure your "four and no more" also take shelter they don't need patience smacking them upside the head.

[Mr. Smith]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

LOOK OUT EVERYONE!!!!!!!!! Shards of a fractured patience are flying around and you might get slapped in the head by a piece. Jason, make sure your "four and no more" also take shelter they don't need patience smacking them upside the head.

Duck!