Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Why does there have to be a tithing system? Why can there not just be a giving system? A system of giving from ones heart as one feels compelled out of their own spirit and by God's Spirit to meet the need that is at hand.

The law is always weak because of us. When we have law we reason away our responsibility.

The elderly widow who is struggling to make ends meet should receive from the church body to help her.

But another brother may give 10% when, due to his abundance, it is nothing compared to the sacrifice others make to give half that percentage. So one is able happily give an amount that is no sacrifice or struggle at all while another, who should be helped by the church, feels compelled to give their expendable income and more.

Law is weak... because of us.

Obedience to the spirit and nature of our God is strong and never fails.

As I tell my kids often... rules are for the unruly. When we exhibit the nature of our God there is no more need for rules because His law is written in our hearts and we follow after His will because it is our desire.

A law will never duplicate the beauty of being led by God on a personal level.

I realy like that especialy what is underlined. Too many times we think that the ministry is the all and all of understanding scripture and if we disagree with what they teach we are in rebelion and on our way to hell. But the promise was to all that when the spirit of truth comes it will teach us all those things we as a child of God needs to understand his word.

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This is fulfilled in our day we just have not realized it yet because of the tradition passed down from RC, they say only the priesthood can understand the scripture and are infalable and we must accept what they teach.

Tell me this is not the underlining spirit of protestant churches that teach "obey those that have the rule over you" or your in rebelion.

As for tithing, what ever way you finacialy support the work of God, he will bless you. And support we must. Thankfuly God looks at the heart of the giver and not the reciever. He holds the reciever accountable to how and what he uses said finaces for. Makes you wonder why many churches don't grow when the ministry takes all the tithe for himself and lets the church struggle with just the offerings to pay bills and expenses.

Seems to me churches that have thier pastor on a salary with a good board to oversee the finances of the church grow in spirit and numbers.

[Aquila]

Certainly churches in our modern world need a more comprehensive financial program. Tithing works. The only issue I have with "tithing" is when it's taught as a doctrine that has to be observed for a "member" to be considered "in good standing" in the church. I've seen people denied ministerial office and opportunities to be board members, ushers, choir members, etc. I've also seen it preached that if one couldn't tithe that they'ved "robbed God" and it implied that they were Hell bound. That's extortion and spiritual abuse seeing that the NT church never embraced tithing nor any other requirement such as circumcision.

So... what's a church to do? I can see a church establishing "covenant partners" or "faith partners" by having members vow or "pledge" a certain percentage or amount of their income monthly. Also the church can have fund raisers and ask for additional "love offerings" as needed. When Israel is presented as an "example" where 10% was given, typically the commitments are very close to 10% across the board. One might want to consider preaching on the blessings of the pledge being akin to the "vow" ...

Psalm 50:14-15 (King James Version)
14Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

I was a liaison for the United Way for about a year and a half in my previous government position. If a local charity or social service organization can function on pledges and donations... why can't a church? Also... I think churches should consider their "mission" to the community they serve. Do they provide clothing closets or food pantries? Do they offer the homeless shelter or serve as a hub directing people to charities that can help? These are important factors. I've seen many churches simply function as a "church" without offering anything to the community.

I feel that if a church is "serving" the community and the congregation has caught onto the vision funds and volunteer work may increase.

Isaiah 58:10
And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Certainly churches in our modern world need a more comprehensive financial program. Tithing works. The only issue I have with "tithing" is when it's taught as a doctrine that has to be observed for a "member" to be considered "in good standing" in the church. I've seen people denied ministerial office and opportunities to be board members, ushers, choir members, etc. I've also seen it preached that if one couldn't tithe that they'ved "robbed God" and it implied that they were Hell bound. That's extortion and spiritual abuse seeing that the NT church never embraced tithing nor any other requirement such as circumcision.

So... what's a church to do? I can see a church establishing "covenant partners" or "faith partners" by having members vow or "pledge" a certain percentage or amount of their income monthly. Also the church can have fund raisers and ask for additional "love offerings" as needed. When Israel is presented as an "example" where 10% was given, typically the commitments are very close to 10% across the board. One might want to consider preaching on the blessings of the pledge being akin to the "vow" ...

Psalm 50:14-15 (King James Version)
14Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
15And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

I was a liaison for the United Way for about a year and a half in my previous government position. If a local charity or social service organization can function on pledges and donations... why can't a church? Also... I think churches should consider their "mission" to the community they serve. Do they provide clothing closets or food pantries? Do they offer the homeless shelter or serve as a hub directing people to charities that can help? These are important factors. I've seen many churches simply function as a "church" without offering anything to the community.

I feel that if a church is "serving" the community and the congregation has caught onto the vision funds and volunteer work may increase.

Isaiah 58:10
And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

Good words. All i disagree with is the first part. Submission to leadership is crucial to be in good standing with the church. My take is if you don't believe the tithing message being preached.. i would seek the Lord as to where you should go. Not all churches teach it the same way. Nevertheless I agree with Gods Drummer, there must be a support system for the ministry so that he or they can minister to the flock

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Why does there have to be a tithing system? Why can there not just be a giving system? A system of giving from ones heart as one feels compelled out of their own spirit and by God's Spirit to meet the need that is at hand.

The law is always weak because of us. When we have law we reason away our responsibility.

The elderly widow who is struggling to make ends meet should receive from the church body to help her.

But another brother may give 10% when, due to his abundance, it is nothing compared to the sacrifice others make to give half that percentage. So one is able happily give an amount that is no sacrifice or struggle at all while another, who should be helped by the church, feels compelled to give their expendable income and more.

Law is weak... because of us.

Obedience to the spirit and nature of our God is strong and never fails.

As I tell my kids often... rules are for the unruly. When we exhibit the nature of our God there is no more need for rules because His law is written in our hearts and we follow after His will because it is our desire.

A law will never duplicate the beauty of being led by God on a personal level.

Tithing is a system that God set up. It is proved and tried. However the tithing law is not really what we should follow, but the spirit of that Law. 10% of what I have, I'm giving to God. There is no law against that. However I understand the frustration many have with the tithes or hell teaching. I would never teach that if I were a pastor but I would teach that tithing is important to support the ministry of the church and would require all leadership to abide by that teaching in the local assembly.


As far as widows go, there are requirements in the epistles regarding widows indeed as the KJV puts it.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Tell me this is not the underlining spirit of protestant churches that teach "obey those that have the rule over you" or your in rebelion.

.

This principle is all through the Bible. Did Jesus agree with Caesar? no but he taught his disciples to pay their taxes. Submission to authority is crucial to being saved. Even King David taught us that with Saul trying to kill him and his own son taking away his kingdom. We have to be careful saying the only authority I need to obey is Jesus Christ. He is the one who set the foundation of his church on apostles and prophets. If you can't trust a pastor to follow the Lord, I wouldn't be going to that church.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Tithing is a system that God set up. It is proved and tried. However the tithing law is not really what we should follow, but the spirit of that Law. 10% of what I have, I'm giving to God. There is no law against that. However I understand the frustration many have with the tithes or hell teaching. I would never teach that if I were a pastor but I would teach that tithing is important to support the ministry of the church and would require all leadership to abide by that teaching in the local assembly.


As far as widows go, there are requirements in the epistles regarding widows indeed as the KJV puts it.

Why should we follow the spirit of the law that we give 10% "of what we have" and not also follow the spirit of the law that 20% of all the tithe that comes in goes to the pastor, musicians, sunday school teachers etc and the rest go to take care of the needy.

That part is as "set up" by God as the rest of it and it is also as "tried and true" as anything else. And it would seem to be at the very heart of the spirit of the law.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Why should we follow the spirit of the law that we give 10% "of what we have" and not also follow the spirit of the law that 20% of all the tithe that comes in goes to the pastor, musicians, sunday school teachers etc and the rest go to take care of the needy.

That part is as "set up" by God as the rest of it and it is also as "tried and true" as anything else. And it would seem to be at the very heart of the spirit of the law.

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm assuming you believe all pastors take all the tithe and do not support missionaries, the poor, etc?

*sigh*

No... I don't believe that.

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Did not Jesus say the same thing to Judas when he said, Lord we could have sold the ointment for money and gave to the poor?

Jesus said the poor you have always, but not me always..

Yes... My pastor is not Jesus and Jesus was not alluding to future pastors when he made this statement.

Originally Posted by onefaith2

If you have a good pastor, he should be supported to do the work God has called him. Its between Him and God what he does with that money. God has the power to take down ANYONE he puts up.

What if I decide he isn't a good pastor. LOL... Don't bother commenting on that one... I was just joking.

Why is it between Him & God? Why isn't it as important to keep the rest of the spirit of the law... isn't the division and distribution of the tithe as much (or more) in keeping with the spirit of the law as the actual collection thereof? Why is this not an important issue?

Originally Posted by onefaith2

It was the offering in the new testament that supported the poor, was it not?

Yes it was... because there was no more use of the tithe. It was free will offerings that did everything.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

*sigh*

No... I don't believe that.



Yes... My pastor is not Jesus and Jesus was not alluding to future pastors when he made this statement.



What if I decide he isn't a good pastor. LOL... Don't bother commenting on that one... I was just joking.

Why is it between Him & God? Why isn't it as important to keep the rest of the spirit of the law... isn't the division and distribution of the tithe as much (or more) in keeping with the spirit of the law as the actual collection thereof? Why is this not an important issue?



Yes it was... because there was no more use of the tithe. It was free will offerings that did everything.

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.


Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.


Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

Well... I tried. But I'm out.

I just can't continue to deal with your willy nilly quotation of scripture in whatever application you need it to fit today.

I can discuss things at length with anyone that agrees with me or disagrees with me. All I need is an intellectual adherence to and use of the word of God. But ticky tacking every scripture that sounds good coupled with taking and leaving what thus sayeth the word of God as it fits ones beliefs... these are things that can't be dealt with. It is an exercise in futility that won't produce fruit.