Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

So the bottom line is they shouldn't be prepared for battle and serve in the military because they have bushels of gender identity problems and can't focus on the enemy when they have "issues" as you claim.

No, that's no the "bottom line." That's a load of ........ you just made up.

There's no reason to believe they wouldn't be just as efficient in battle as you or I. I'm not sure anyone straight-faced even attempts such a ludicrous argument.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think even straight people have had periods like that in their lives. This road isn't easy to travel. But we have grace, goodness, and mercy (born from the love of God) to pick us up and dust us off along the way.

Experimentation and orientation are contrastingly distinct.

Freud claims that most boys entertain same-sex curiosity at the youngest stages of life. This isn't because of orientation, though. It's sexual curiosity.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

There is this theory that a man's actions and disposition are separated. A man's disposition is the ultimate driving force behind his outward actions. God focuses primarily on the heart of man in Scripture. A wayward heart, however, put in the healing hands of God, is as redemptive as it gets.

I believe the Church should respond with clarity on the issue of homosexuality, while also offering personal support (not phobias and hatred) for homosexuals who seek to overcome such an orientation. I believe Christian congregations must honestly examine themselves in terms of their own attitudes toward homosexuality. The Bible nowhere teaches it's the unforgivable sin. Churches must exist as a fellowship that supports people in various kinds of personal brokenness, including this type. We must also realize the role of the Spirit (not just an instantaneous crisis moment), and the radical transforming power of Grace. The testimony is Paul's "such were some of you." Grace is not powerless. If Masters & Johnson can claim a 66 percent success rate in dealing wth homosexuals using secular techniques, can we doubt that with the power of God's Holy Spirit even more dramatic rates are possible? The issue is to not make one's entire journey to the Cross about homosexuality. That makes everything counter-productive. We must all approach God has broken, hear the Story of his reclamation, trust in Him and watch Grace plant itself as a seed -- and be prepared to watching it, and helping it grow.

Off the top of my head, it is easy to apply operant conditioning models and do systematic desensitization therapy or aversion therapy and other behavioral shaping
Shame aversion therapy and assertion therapy don;'t work because of the temperaments involved.

Again none of this is relevant to military service.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

Off the top of my head, it is easy to apply operant conditioning models and do systematic desensitization therapy or aversion therapy and other behavioral shaping
Shame aversion therapy and assertion therapy don;'t work because of the temperaments involved.

Again none of this is relevant to military service.

WTH, Coadie???

It's completely relevant (your honor). We are discussing about homosexuality from a general frame for a moment. I would wager your opinions about DADT are GREATLY influenced by your overall worldview about homosexuality in general -- not purely some tactical military consideration. That's bologna.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Sam

I would also like to ask about organizations like
Exodus International http://www.exodusinternational.org/
and Prodigal Ministries http://www.prodigal-ministries.com/
Are you familiar with them?
do you know people in them?
and, if so, do you think they are effective in what they do?
...

I am familiar with Exodus. I have no personal experience nor do I know anyone who participated in their program. What I can tell you is that Exodus keeps no stats that I can find on successful conversions. Two of it's co-founders (Michael Busses and Gary Cooper) resigned, divorced their wives, and partnered. Two more leaders (Jeremy Marks and Darlene Bogle) also came out as gay. All four issued public apologies. Michael Busses is on record stating he'd never seen Exodus actually change any participant into a hetrosexual.

I make no judgement call here.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Experimentation and orientation are contrastingly distinct.

Freud claims that most boys entertain same-sex curiosity at the youngest stages of life. This isn't because of orientation, though. It's sexual curiosity.

Freud and what he taught is so long ago discarded. James Fowler at least could discuss faith, meaning and purpose.
At Least Margaret Mahler dealt more completely with separation and individuation and iluminated psycho social relationships.

He (freud) did have a tiny similarity to jean Piagett regarding cognitive development.

I just remembered watson, He leaned more on experiences and learning for adaptive and maladaptive behavioral insights.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Azzan

I am familiar with Exodus. I have no personal experience nor do I know anyone who participated in their program. What I can tell you is that Exodus keeps no stats that I can find on successful conversions. Two of it's co-founders (Michael Busses and Gary Cooper) resigned, divorced their wives, and partnered. Two more leaders (Jeremy Marks and Darlene Bogle) also came out as gay. All four issued public apologies. Michael Busses is on record stating he'd never seen Exodus actually change any participant into a hetrosexual.

I make no judgement call here.

http://www.exodusinternational.org/content/view/161/56/

In fairness, to men who were having an adulterous affair in the time leading up to their departure, would not look favorable on any organization that condemned their behavior. I mean, looking at this objectively here. Did they leave because they didn't feel it worked, or left because they slipped back into their old lifestyle? That's the danger of having anyone work together for any period of time that share similar struggles.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by coadie

Freud and what he taught is so long ago discarded. James Fowler at least could discuss faith, meaning and purpose.
At Least Margaret Mahler dealt more completely with separation and individuation and iluminated psycho social relationships.

He (freud) did have a tiny similarity to jean Piagett regarding cognitive development.

I just remembered watson, He leaned more on experiences and learning for adaptive and maladaptive behavioral insights.

Uh... what about Freud taught has been discarded????? lol

He is the Father of Modern Psychology. Do you use the word "ego?" Yes, you are a Freudian, my friend.

And Freud's Early Childhood Development model is still WIDELY popular.

[Jeffrey]

From my friend Coadie:

My opinions are influenced
1 By formal behavioral science degrees
2 Inpatient clinical rotations
3 Study of medicine and experience in medicine including neurosurgery
4 research
5 counseling.

I can read a story in the bible and recall pictures of certain patients, professors and charts about similar cases. I can also take some biblical principles and name people and examples in the secular world that think they discovered it and it was in the bible under their nose all along.

Example, I can tell you what watson's take would be on how Moses handled taking out the guy that was beating up a jew.

Apparently Coadie is a real-life therapist, clinical psychologist, something...

Either way, Coadie, are you saying there's monolithic, homogeneous consensus on Sigmund Freud carte blanche in the scientific community? Really??? You may have me on intelligence, but if you say "yes" you better chalk that one up in your "I was wrong" box.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Me too! I love to see the looks on people's faces when I walk across the water at the pool. lol

Well, if you are walking across the water at a public pool,
I hope you have on a modest and godly swim suit that covers all flesh except your hands, neck, and head.