A ? about messianic jews.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Never heard a Oneness EVER say that. All Oneness that I know of agree on this point. God is only seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.



Very few Trins say God is three manifestations. They are accused of being Oneness if they do because thats what WE say.

We are discussing Messianic Jews (Jewish disciples of the Messiah), not Gentile believers in Jesus Christ. There are two different world views at play here.

[Michael The Disciple]

We are discussing Messianic Jews (Jewish disciples of the Messiah), not Gentile believers in Jesus Christ. There are two different world views at play here.

I quoted you as talking about what Gentile Oneness believers say. I pointed out they dont generally say what you said.

Then I quoted you as saying Trins say God is three manifestations. I pointed out that is usually what WE say.

If I am misunderstanding you somehow sorry.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I quoted you as talking about what Gentile Oneness believers say. I pointed out they dont generally say what you said.

Then I quoted you as saying Trins say God is three manifestations. I pointed out that is usually what WE say.

If I am misunderstanding you somehow sorry.

Then the communication problem is mine, not yours. My apologies.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Without writing a book - - the following are the generalized basics:

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

This is what trinity believes

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Trinitarians view God as a single being with three separate manifestations,

This is actually what oneness believe.

Did you somehow mistype?

[houston]

Hashaliac:

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

There is a piece of art that is what you describe. It may be of greek origin. It depicts "modalism". Funny, some "oneness" people that I knew believed that it was a representation of the trinity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by houston

There is a piece of art that is what you describe. It may be of greek origin. It depicts "modalism". Funny, some "oneness" people that I knew believed that it was a representation of the trinity.

The trinity is shown in ancient art as a being with three faces. Oneness is one person with one face.

Just as God made man with spirit, soul and body, but one name and one person, God is three manifestations with one name and is One Person: Oneness.

[A.W. Bowman]

:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
Without writing a book - - the following are the generalized basics:

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
This is what trinity believes

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
Trinitarians view God as a single being with three separate manifestations,
This is actually what oneness believe.

Did you somehow mistype?

Ah yes. After looking at the posts - I indeed mean what I originally posted.

The UPCI statement of faith refers to God as an 'indivisible deity', yet describe God as three manifestations of the one God (a three-sided - indivisible - monolith). I have found that most Gentile Trinity believers believe the same thing. The term 'manifestations' being equated to the three types of identifiable personalities for each relational manifestation of God. This position is not unlike that of a 'oneness' believer. Many on this forum have also noted the same similarities - while many refuse to acknowledge such similarities between the two camps.

The problem resides in that the two sides cannot agree on the terminology to be used in describing God according to His various modes of expressed relationship to mankind. As I pointed out before, the problem between the AOG and the initial UPC folks was over the ritualistic view of baptisms, not about how many gods there are. That issue was a later development in the escalating right/wrong game.

Messianic Jews, however, do not have such a problem with the three person (relationship attributes) manifestations of God. When viewed from a Hebraic world view, God is an integrated, indivisible unity of an infinite number of elements, not the monolithic view of the Oneness camp. God is not monolithic in His nature or composition, any more than a man is monolithic in his nature or composition. There is but one God (complex in nature and composition), just as there is only one 'you' (complex in nature and composition). See my example of the composition of man in the original post.

Even so, the Hebraic view is not the same as the predominant Trinitarian view of God. The Hebraic view is more like rope making. There are three major strands, each consisting of a great number of twisted fibers making up each of the three strands. And, while this illustrates the basic Hebrew view, they take it a step further, i.e., that God is not restricted to only the three expressed manifestations described in scripture. God is more complex than that, and any attempt to describe God beyond what is revealed in scripture is impossible, and a waste of time. Another Hebrew example is the view of a multifaceted diamond. Trins (and oneness) generally see only three facets while the Hebrew view is of an uncountable number of facets.

The bottom line is that the Jewish world view recognizes that there is but one true God in the universe, but does not allow for the defining of God, His attributes, nature, or composition, beyond what is written in scripture, because God is incomprehensible. The Hebrew language (not the English translations) of the Shema (De 6:4) supports the Hebrew position. Consequently, neither the Trinitarians or Oneness camps can legitimately appeal to the Shema to support their particular view of God. Now, that will hurt a lot of feelings on both sides of the war.

Conclusion: We spend a lot of time defending our view of God, and not much time trying to live a life pleasing to God. And, living a life dedicated to following some rules of conduct (performance) will not work. Our priorities are all out of whack!

[A.W. Bowman]

Back to the original question:

Originally Posted by houston

Are there Messianic Jews that are "oneness?" Why are most Messianic Jews Trinitarians? Isn't that an oxymoron (Trinitarian Jew).

What we see happing on this thread is the usual deterioration into a Oneness verses Trinitarian world views, ignoring the question - Why are Messianic Jews so often seen as being Trinitarian?

We don't need to defend that fact that there is but one God, so far, except for a few cults and strange movements, everyone recognizes that there is but one true God. It is the religious worldview and spiritual perspective of scripture that we quibble over.

Mike put it quite well:

The trinity is shown in ancient art as a being with three faces. Oneness is one person with one face.

Just as God made man with spirit, soul and body, but one name and one person, God is three manifestations with one name and is One Person: Oneness.

The Hebrew worldview rejects both of these Gentile views, although the trinity view is closer to the historic Hebraic view of God. That is why there are so many more Messianic adherence to 'Trinitarianism' than to 'Oneness' .

[houston]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The trinity is shown in ancient art as a being with three faces. Oneness is one person with one face.

Just as God made man with spirit, soul and body, but one name and one person, God is three manifestations with one name and is One Person: Oneness.

I cant find a pic of the "mask" that I am referencing. It was one head with three faces, a representation of modalism.

[houston]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Back to the original question:



What we see happing on this thread is the usual deterioration into a Oneness verses Trinitarian world views, ignoring the question - Why are Messianic Jews so often seen as being Trinitarian?

We don't need to defend that fact that there is but one God, so far, except for a few cults and strange movements, everyone recognizes that there is but one true God. It is the religious worldview and spiritual perspective of scripture that we quibble over.

Mike put it quite well:



The Hebrew worldview rejects both of these Gentile views, although the trinity view is closer to the historic Hebraic view of God. That is why there are so many more Messianic adherence to 'Trinitarianism' than to 'Oneness' .

What is your view?