Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

emotionally driven? See thats why discussing in person is better than a forum. Thats very far from the truth. I'm presenting to you principles. If you do not agree that is fine and is everyone's perogative but pray and see what the Holy Ghost would teach you regarding the "principles" I have laid out.

Maybe you're not realizing it. Take a step away and look at it from another perspective. You're illustrating that Abraham shows us a "principle". But he only tithed once and he only tithed of war spoils. You also say that Jacob's vow to tithe shows us a tithing "principle", but he only vowed to tithe IF God blessed him... and the vow illustrated that he'd tithe AFTER God blessed him, not before. You might not realize this but you're divorcing the "tithe" performed in each passage from it's context to establish your "principle". If the "principle" is kept in context we learn that we're only expected to tithe once, it's a personal choice not a requirement, we are to only tithe of increase not our entire living, and tithing should be performed only IF God blesses us after he has blessed us. That is what this principle shows if kept in context. You can't say that a "principle" is estasblished just because a word is found in a verse. You have to examine the "principle" active in it's context. That is what we're seeing you not do. I know you don't realize this. But that's what we're seeing.

And then there is this... Abraham was circumcised. Should Christians in the NT be circumcised? Paul addressed this already. In a very real sense, tithing and circumcision in the time of Abraham are very much alike. Un-required of the NT believer.

Suffice to say tithing is very biblical, both before the law and during it and the NT church is silent on the matter. So the burden of proof is on both sides as to when it ended.

Don't you think if the NT church taught tithing it would have to be addressed? Especially among those Gentiles who had never tithed nor had heard of the tithe. It would have been quite a question. Please understand, the tithe was a tenth of the land's harvest and a tenth of the herds raised on the land. The tithes went into the "storehouse". For 300 years Christians met in homes. The average "church gathering" was between 15 and 30 people depending on venue. They didn't have a bank and/or treasury. Where did they keep all this loot??? Historians and anthropoligists specializing in the first century have noted that it appears that Christians didn't "tithe". They gave generously to meet the needs of their local assembly as needs arose. They also raised money to relieve saints in famine, widows, and the poor. All on an as needed basis. It's established history and known fact that the historic Apostolic church didn't tithe.

The earliest Christian assemblies patterned themselves after the Jewish synagogues which were led by rabbis who, like Paul, refused to gain a profit from preaching and teaching God’s Word. There are many books on Jewish social life which explain this in great detail.
From Christ’s death until Christianity became a legally recognized religion almost 300 years later, the majority of great church leaders took self-imposed vows of poverty. This is historically documented. They took Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler in Luke 18:22 literally “sell all that you have, give it to the poor, and follow me.” Most church historians agree that these early church leaders for at least the first 200 years worked for a living and were self-supporting. A Christian leader could not tell a Roman census-taker that he was a full-time preacher of an outlaw religion.
Clement of Rome (c95), Justin Martyr (c150), Irenaeus (c150-200) and Tertullian (c150-220) all opposed tithing as a strictly Jewish tradition. The Didache (c150-200) condemns traveling apostles who stay longer than three days and ask for money. And travelers who decided to remain with them were required to learn a trade. These early opponents of tithing are not quoted by tithe-teachers.
Cyprian (200-258) tried unsuccessfully to impose tithing in Carthage, North Africa around A. D. 250. At his conversion Cyprian gave away great wealth to the poor and lived under a vow of poverty. His idea of tithing included equal re-distribution to the poor. And –we must remember—his ideas of tithing were not adopted.
According to the very best sources it took over 500 years before a local church Council of Macon in France, in the year 585, to try (unsuccessfully) to enforce tithing on its members. It was not until the year 777 that Charlemagne legally allowed the church to collect tithes.

That is the history of tithing found in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana and the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia. History and facts all go far beyond the fuzzy emotional appeals to the notion that the church held these "principles". Face it, facts are facts.

We both agree that tithing is not a bad system as long as its not tithes or hell teaching. The pastor of that local assembly denotes whether a person that doesn't tithe and is able to do so should be involved. That no one can change.

Ahhh, if only that were true in most assemblies today. The best system is the NT system. But keep in mind... I'm an advocate of "House Churching" over traditional church. I believe we need to get back to the way the Apostles did church. The church spread like wildfire through the Roman empire without collecting tithes, without single bishop rule, without buildings, and without altars, sermons, altar calls, choirs, steeples, hymnals, blah, blah, blah. All it takes is a "biblical" concept of "church". Wheresoever two are more are gathered in his name, there he is in the midst of them. We can gather at your house, have food, break bread, partake in the wine, have prayer, study scripture together, share scriptures that God has been using to talk to us, share poetry, song, and spend all evening worshiping, fellowshiping, and building one another up. If a brother or sister in our group needs groceries... we give them money or buy them groceries. If they need their car repaired... we take up a collection to help pay for it. It's actually quite simple. That's why many call house church, "Simple Church". It's a return to the NT basics.

But that's just me.

The bottom line is the more we give to God, the more God will press down, shaken over, bring into his work. So essentially NT tithing then is giving but giving along the principle of Abraham and Jacob which are before the law.

LOL Again you missed it. I don't give according to the principle of Abraham and Jacob. First, I don't just give of interest earned or windfall profits as Abraham did. Also, I give more often than Abraham gave his tithe. Also, I don't vow to God that I'll give a tenth IF he blesses me. Nor do I wait until after I'm blessed to give what I do choose to give. You're ignoring the principles principles are actually found in the texts themselves. LOL

I know you don't see this. But you really have to realize you're appearing to those who DO know the history and HAVE studied the issue out in great detail.

God bless.