Christian Perspectives Concerning the Law

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

HaShaliach, I have a lot of respect for you and your openness for debate. I feel I can be honest with my feelings and opinions, and that you will consider my approach to Faith and Religion. That's all I ask from people; just consider. You don't have to agree, but at least think about it.

I wish I could agree about the simplicity in Jesus Christ, but it's not that simple. For example, the same Jesus that extended mercy to the lowest of the lows on his earthly mission, will someday sit on a Throne, casting all of humanities unworthy subjects into the torment of eternal fire. This doesn't make any sense.

Look at the Talmud. How do we look at this? How does this fit in Faith and our mission as Christians? Unveiling this "Document" can unnerve the best at heart in regards to Christianity and the Jews.

The Bible itself is full of discrepancy, opinion, and doctrines that cannot be proven (the afterlife being one); this alone leaves people to ponder in speculation and doubt. Why in the world would God leave human beings, who can’t even pay their bills, with the responsibility of dishing out Eternal Damnation to people who struggle to understand or don’t agree with a particular Religious ideal?

Even you had posted that if Jesus is the Truth, and we must follow this Truth, we would need another Book as large as the Bible to explain the Truth about Jesus, and that very few people can describe this Truth.

Thank you – you do me honor beyond my station.

Yet, in truth, I do understand your position as you have described it, I have been there myself. The difficulties we all face are multifaceted.

Our biggest problem rests in our world view, our manner and mode of thinking and relating to our physical environment. Our heritage consists of Greek and Roman thinking patterns. Which defines us as time dependent (linear), abstract thinkers in a noun based (object) language of expression. The writers and intended readers of the scriptures view the world from a time independent (spiral precept), concrete thinkers in a verb (action) based language. This makes understanding and identifying the correct application of scripture difficult. NOT impossible – just difficult. Much of our contemporary problems with scripture start with the simple ignorance of the scriptural languages by our teachers. The Greek language we can handle better than Hebrew because it is the language of Aristotle, the foundation of our own thinking patterns. But it still holds problems for us because the NT Greek was used to express Hebrew thoughts. The bottom line is that for the most part, our teachers simply do not understand what it is they profess to teach and the rest of us pay the price. 1Timothy 1:3-10

One of the fundamental principles is that the gospel is so simple that even those who have a diminished intellectual capacity can grasp the precepts of scriptures (e.g., simple right/wrong concepts, a God exists, etc). The other aspect is that the scriptures can become just as complex as any individual wishes to make them. Like the God they reveal, the depth is unsearchable. Scripture only opens the door to the infinite – they do not attempt to explain it.

One of my favorite sayings is, “God is. Jesus is His Messiah (the anointed one) because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.”

I realize how disconcerting and even frustrating the word of truth can be. I have not come even close to mastering it! That is why I have been reduced to making my own translations, so that I can attempt to paint the Hebraic language pictures, with their included sounds, sight, taste, touch and smell (verb/action/picture) attributes. After well over 40 years of study, in 2008 I finally took upon myself the title of ‘Serious Student of the Word’. No laying on of hands, no prophecy, nothing – I did it all by myself and on my own authority. Yet, I found that there was a heavy price to pay for that title.

While your questions raise more issues than this already overburdened thread was created to address, there remains yet one additional point you raised that needs to be addressed: The question of judgments.

Yes, men shall be called upon to judge angels, and at least the Apostles, perhaps all saints, will be called upon to judge the nations. How can this be when we cannot even judge issues among ourselves? Again, this is a problem of changing our mind set from Western to Hebraic. 1 Corinthians 6:1-5. While we so frequently judge as men judge (flesh), and not as God judges, we will have that ability after our resurrection. This doctrine is based on the promise that we shall know God even as we are now known (by Him).

In the mean time, we are still commanded to come to Christ as little children – simple in our approach, in the understanding of our God, and in our acceptance of the grace that has been offered to us in exchange for our iniquity before a holy and righteous God. It has more to do with one's point of view and attitude, than mental effort.

There is value in the Talmuds, the Mishna, etc. but the study of these commentaries should be left to teachers and teachers in training who have been previously instructed in the Hebrew language and world view. Attempting to digest these kinds of works is something like a person who has mastered algebra attempting to study advanced mathematical functions, such as understanding the Fourier transform or the Laplace transform, which are used for solving some differential and integral equations. My recommendation to most students is this: Stay with the scriptures and generally accepted English commentaries. Then start studying the biblical languages, history, culture, and religion of the original scripture writers. After gaining a good understanding of these subjects, then one ‘may’ be ready to undertake a study of the rabbinical instructions and commentaries. But then, the question is, why bother?

I know this post was very insufficient. The questions you posed require more serious responses than what we have time or room for here. Like all of the law questions asked by Ivy, perhaps separate threads would be in order for your concerns.

---------------
Now, I need to go back and study what has been posted on the thread concerning 'The Law'.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Thank you – you do me honor beyond my station.

Yet, in truth, I do understand your position as you have described it, I have been there myself. The difficulties we all face are multifaceted.

Our biggest problem rests in our world view, our manner and mode of thinking and relating to our physical environment. Our heritage consists of Greek and Roman thinking patterns. Which defines us as time dependent (linear), abstract thinkers in a noun based (object) language of expression. The writers and intended readers of the scriptures view the world from a time independent (spiral precept), concrete thinkers in a verb (action) based language. This makes understanding and identifying the correct application of scripture difficult. NOT impossible – just difficult. Much of our contemporary problems with scripture start with the simple ignorance of the scriptural languages by our teachers. The Greek language we can handle better than Hebrew because it is the language of Aristotle, the foundation of our own thinking patterns. But it still holds problems for us because the NT Greek was used to express Hebrew thoughts. The bottom line is that for the most part, our teachers simply do not understand what it is they profess to teach and the rest of us pay the price. 1Timothy 1:3-10

One of the fundamental principles is that the gospel is so simple that even those who have a diminished intellectual capacity can grasp the precepts of scriptures (e.g., simple right/wrong concepts, a God exists, etc). The other aspect is that the scriptures can become just as complex as any individual wishes to make them. Like the God they reveal, the depth is unsearchable. Scripture only opens the door to the infinite – they do not attempt to explain it.

One of my favorite sayings is, “God is. Jesus is His Messiah (the anointed one) because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.”

I realize how disconcerting and even frustrating the word of truth can be. I have not come even close to mastering it! That is why I have been reduced to making my own translations, so that I can attempt to paint the Hebraic language pictures, with their included sounds, sight, taste, touch and smell (verb/action/picture) attributes. After well over 40 years of study, in 2008 I finally took upon myself the title of ‘Serious Student of the Word’. No laying on of hands, no prophecy, nothing – I did it all by myself and on my own authority. Yet, I found that there was a heavy price to pay for that title.

While your questions raise more issues than this already overburdened thread was created to address, there remains yet one additional point you raised that needs to be addressed: The question of judgments.

Yes, men shall be called upon to judge angels, and at least the Apostles, perhaps all saints, will be called upon to judge the nations. How can this be when we cannot even judge issues among ourselves? Again, this is a problem of changing our mind set from Western to Hebraic. 1 Corinthians 6:1-5. While we so frequently judge as men judge (flesh), and not as God judges, we will have that ability after our resurrection. This doctrine is based on the promise that we shall know God even as we are now known (by Him).

In the mean time, we are still commanded to come to Christ as little children – simple in our approach, in the understanding of our God, and in our acceptance of the grace that has been offered to us in exchange for our iniquity before a holy and righteous God. It has more to do with one's point of view and attitude, than mental effort.

There is value in the Talmuds, the Mishna, etc. but the study of these commentaries should be left to teachers and teachers in training who have been previously instructed in the Hebrew language and world view. Attempting to digest these kinds of works is something like a person who has mastered algebra attempting to study advanced mathematical functions, such as understanding the Fourier transform or the Laplace transform, which are used for solving some differential and integral equations. My recommendation to most students is this: Stay with the scriptures and generally accepted English commentaries. Then start studying the biblical languages, history, culture, and religion of the original scripture writers. After gaining a good understanding of these subjects, then one ‘may’ be ready to undertake a study of the rabbinical instructions and commentaries. But then, the question is, why bother?

I know this post was very insufficient. The questions you posed require more serious responses than what we have time or room for here. Like all of the law questions asked by Ivy, perhaps separate threads would be in order for your concerns.

---------------
Now, I need to go back and study what has been posted on the thread concerning 'The Law'.

Thanks for the thorough answer. Much to consider.

I still find the act of Faith and the Christian movement to be a complicated one, especially using spectral evidence. The afterlife cannot be verified, other than ancient writings and dogmas that can be traced to the Catholic Church and other cultures that have mystified beliefs.

Much of my feelings about Religion(s) have evolved over many years of observing the bold expressions by people (including myself), which claimed absolute Truth, only to find it was an absolute assumption and even a lie. Men that use the unseen to captivate an audience are easily driven into a fairy tale, and the followers are the victims.

I also find it interesting how Christians can deem Jesus Christ as God in flesh, but just imagine a MAN walking into your Church claiming such a thing. We would call him a nut. Whether we admit it or not, a claim such as this from any human being would be hard to accept by any people, unless, the people involved are easily swayed in the mind.

I know this is a harsh doubt, but to ignore the validity of this experience of those 2 thousand years ago, we continue to do what most Christians do; accept something without truly understanding the impact, affect, and nature of a particular allegation made outside of our time element. I’ve seen this so much in the Church, and my heart grieves at how little we truly consider the World, past, present, and future. We are so locked into the “Now”, our ability to understand even those 100 years ago is a struggle grappled down by today’s ideal.

This is why it is so easy for us to say, “Jesus IS God”. He isn’t here and now telling us He IS God, walking up and down our aisles and streets under these bold claims. We pass the buck, knowing we don’t have to really face the FACTS. We seem to ignore that this was probably the greatest known problem with those accepting Jesus as the Messiah, as his proclamation of being the “I AM” was way too hard for the Jews to accept. Back then and to this day, devout Jews don’t even refer to God as a “He”, as this limits God and belittles the Almighty Spirit that fills EVERYTHING.

"Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human."

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism...fs/messiah.htm

I think, more involvement by people in the realities of this World would help us all to stop over-and-under estimating others who don’t see it our way. Touching the sick, hungry, and people who don’t sing or dress like us, can affect us in ways where the FACTS become more prevalent in our conclusions. Researching the Indians, Slavery, the Civil War, Genocide, and the True Nature of Religion, these and much more can impact our lives forever. Seeing the REAL good and bad in ALL civilizations can help us to stop being so arrogant about Faith and the Tenets of our narrow minds.

I personally feel that the Christian movement in America and abroad is the result of the Roman Empire embracing and politicizing Faith. There are just too many dots that connect our current Church model to the time frame after 300 AD. It is also interesting to note that all of the New Testament documents are written in Greek, the Roman language, and no originals exist.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Thanks for the thorough answer. Much to consider.

I still find the act of Faith and the Christian movement to be a complicated one, especially using spectral evidence. The afterlife cannot be verified, other than ancient writings and dogmas that can be traced to the Catholic Church and other cultures that have mystified beliefs.

Much of my feelings about Religion(s) have evolved over many years of observing the bold expressions by people (including myself), which claimed absolute Truth, only to find it was an absolute assumption and even a lie. Men that use the unseen to captivate an audience are easily driven into a fairy tale, and the followers are the victims.

I also find it interesting how Christians can deem Jesus Christ as God in flesh, but just imagine a MAN walking into your Church claiming such a thing. We would call him a nut. Whether we admit it or not, a claim such as this from any human being would be hard to accept by any people, unless, the people involved are easily swayed in the mind.

I know this is a harsh doubt, but to ignore the validity of this experience of those 2 thousand years ago, we continue to do what most Christians do; accept something without truly understanding the impact, affect, and nature of a particular allegation made outside of our time element. I’ve seen this so much in the Church, and my heart grieves at how little we truly consider the World, past, present, and future. We are so locked into the “Now”, our ability to understand even those 100 years ago is a struggle grappled down by today’s ideal.

This is why it is so easy for us to say, “Jesus IS God”. He isn’t here and now telling us He IS God, walking up and down our aisles and streets under these bold claims. We pass the buck, knowing we don’t have to really face the FACTS. We seem to ignore that this was probably the greatest known problem with those accepting Jesus as the Messiah, as his proclamation of being the “I AM” was way too hard for the Jews to accept. Back then and to this day, devout Jews don’t even refer to God as a “He”, as this limits God and belittles the Almighty Spirit that fills EVERYTHING.

NFS, what you are saying is definitely something to ponder over. However, I would like for you to consider in your exploration of religion the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The whole of Christianity hinges on this fact.

Now, if we look consider just secular history, it is known that Christians were taken to carthage where they they fed to animals for not denying Jesus Christ. What do you think of that? Notice, they had a choice to deny Christ yet they did not. They died for Jesus Christ whom they believed in.

Also, we can look at the bible where the apostles were persecuted for their belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Do you think the apostles would have willingly died for their belief in Jesus Christ if they did not witness his resurrection?

Also, what could make a man like Paul who killed members of the church all of a sudden start believing in Jesus Christ to the point of saying he was ready to die for the name of Jesus Christ?

And lastly, we've seen modern day Christians in the Arab world and in communist countries die for their faith in Jesus Christ?

What I'm trying to articulate is that when we come by faith to believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and confess him as Lord, the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirits that we children of God. We are so gripped by the reality of Christ's presence in our lives that not even death can shake our faith. Now, I realize if you've not believed on Jesus Christ, you will not have had this experience. However, God chooses for us to come to him in faith and then he will manifest himself to us.

Consider this scripture as you explore your journey in life...

Heb 11:6 ...for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless...

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

NFS, what you are saying is definitely something to ponder over. However, I would like for you to consider in your exploration of religion the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. The whole of Christianity hinges on this fact.

Now, if we look consider just secular history, it is known that Christians were taken to carthage where they they fed to animals for not denying Jesus Christ. What do you think of that? Notice, they had a choice to deny Christ yet they did not. They died for Jesus Christ whom they believed in.

Also, we can look at the bible where the apostles were persecuted for their belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Do you think the apostles would have willingly died for their belief in Jesus Christ if they did not witness his resurrection?

Also, what could make a man like Paul who killed members of the church all of a sudden start believing in Jesus Christ to the point of saying he was ready to die for the name of Jesus Christ?

And lastly, we've seen modern day Christians in the Arab world and in communist countries die for their faith in Jesus Christ?

What I'm trying to articulate is that when we come by faith to believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and confess him as Lord, the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirits that we children of God. We are so gripped by the reality of Christ's presence in our lives that not even death can shake our faith. Now, I realize if you've not believed on Jesus Christ, you will not have had this experience. However, God chooses for us to come to him in faith and then he will manifest himself to us.

Consider this scripture as you explore your journey in life...

Heb 11:6 ...for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God bless...

As far as becoming a martyr, people of all faiths do this. Dying for a cause is nothing new, including those in our Country who've died on battlefields for the sake of Freedom and protection of their families. Even those who were devout to Hitler died with their hand on their heart, empowered by patriotism, while millions of innocent people were being slaughtered in Concentration Camps.

So I think using the examples of those who died for the cause of Christ might be a little off base, as men like Jim Jones convinced people to die for "Jesus".

I do appreciate your simplistic approach to Faith. That's a big, thumbs up!

Unfortunately, many in the Apostolic Church don't quite agree with you. The New Birth and Conversion experience is complicated and is laced with "Works". But not just the Apostolic Church, most Religions require a host of adherences in order to qualify them as a “Member”, this also leading to Salvation.

Certain examples in Scripture deeply support your simplistic views; the Thief on the cross, the sinner smiting his breast, the woman caught in adultery. These and more are basic experiences, with powerful conclusions, without the complex railings of Religion.

Not sure if you’ve seen my other posts, but I am a Christian and have been pastoring for 15 years. I came into the Apostolic Movement 33 years ago, and, I do love God. People on this Forum have accused me of not being a Christian because of my bold and honest questions, but I view my pursuit of Truth as something that God appreciates.