The Great One-Step/Three-Step Debate

KeptByTheWord · #1 01-22-2011, 11:11 AM

Wow, Bro. Blume! Thank you for doing this in-depth analysis of the HG and the one-stepper versus three-stepper positions. I have to take a stand with you and agree. I would never condemn anyone for not receiving the "tongues" experience also. But, I would encourage them to seek after it though, because the experience is real, and I believe a higher endowment of power from God, the Comforter sent to lead and guide us into all truth. But if someone is manifesting the fruit or evidence in their life, without speaking in tongues, I would never condem them "now" and say they are lost, although just a short while ago, I would have. Thankfully the Lord has opened my eyes to realize this.

As far as baptism goes, if it was good enough for the apostles to do to everyone who believed, then it is good enough for me. But I have a question - should the person being baptized be the one to call on the name of the Lord, and confess their sins?

Read Mark 1:4-5 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And again in Acts where Paul recounts his conversion experience ...

Acts 22:16 And now, why tarriest though? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Makes me wonder if the person being baptized shouldn't be the one calling on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Any thoughts on this?

Don't mean to start a "bunny rabbit trail" on your post Bro. Blume, but this this is also part of the difference between the one-stepper, versus three-stepper positions on the HG/tongues and baptism in water salvation plan.

TGBTG · #2 01-22-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Wow, Bro. Blume! Thank you for doing this in-depth analysis of the HG and the one-stepper versus three-stepper positions. I have to take a stand with you and agree. I would never condemn anyone for not receiving the "tongues" experience also. But, I would encourage them to seek after it though, because the experience is real, and I believe a higher endowment of power from God, the Comforter sent to lead and guide us into all truth. But if someone is manifesting the fruit or evidence in their life, without speaking in tongues, I would never condem them "now" and say they are lost, although just a short while ago, I would have. Thankfully the Lord has opened my eyes to realize this.

As far as baptism goes, if it was good enough for the apostles to do to everyone who believed, then it is good enough for me. But I have a question - should the person being baptized be the one to call on the name of the Lord, and confess their sins?

Read Mark 1:4-5 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And again in Acts where Paul recounts his conversion experience ...

Acts 22:16 And now, why tarriest though? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Makes me wonder if the person being baptized shouldn't be the one calling on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Any thoughts on this?

Don't mean to start a "bunny rabbit trail" on your post Bro. Blume, but this this is also part of the difference between the one-stepper, versus three-stepper positions on the HG/tongues and baptism in water salvation plan.

Will the convert be talking while he/she is in the water?? I think not. The whole point of calling on the name of the Lord is that you are focusing/putting your faith in Jesus Christ while going into the water. Hence, Paul tells us in

Romans 6
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Also, I think we should remember that a new convert does not even know about the baptism debate in most cases. A new convert is just so overjoyed with his new found faith in Jesus Christ that he will just jump into the water if he was told Jesus commanded it. So a new convert's faith is focusing on Jesus Christ while the baptizer is saying:
"Upon your profession of faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as he as commanded that all believers should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, I now baptize you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (One immersion into one body, Amen!!!)

*AQuietPlace* · #3 01-22-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

But, I would encourage them to seek after it though, because the experience is real, and I believe a higher endowment of power from God, the Comforter sent to lead and guide us into all truth.

This is something that bothers me......

Yes, the experience is very real when the presence of the Lord's spirit 'comes over you' (for lack of a better term).

But I have - SO many times - seen people praying at the altar, the spirit of the Lord almost visible all over them. Their face is glowing, you can see that they are feeling the presence and power of God so strongly. They are probably even "stammering". They feel completely changed and renewed. But, because they can't seem to articulate "tongues", we say they didn't get the Holy Ghost.

I guess that's one of the biggest things that bothers me about the "must speak in tongues to be saved" belief.

We have people with their ears pressed to the person's mouth, trying to determine whether or not they utter a full word in tongues. If they can get even a full word or two out, we pronounce that "They got it!!"

Nothing else is different. The power of God is just as strong all around them, but if they don't speak those few words, they didn't get it. Speak those few words, and they did.

It's just so confusing to me.

TGBTG · #4 01-22-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This is something that bothers me......

Yes, the experience is very real when the presence of the Lord's spirit 'comes over you' (for lack of a better term).

But I have - SO many times - seen people praying at the altar, the spirit of the Lord almost visible all over them. Their face is glowing, you can see that they are feeling the presence and power of God so strongly. They are probably even "stammering". They feel completely changed and renewed. But, because they can't seem to articulate "tongues", we say they didn't get the Holy Ghost.

I guess that's one of the biggest things that bothers me about the "must speak in tongues to be saved" belief.

We have people with their ears pressed to the person's mouth, trying to determine whether or not they utter a full word in tongues. If they can get even a full word or two out, we pronounce that "They got it!!"

Nothing else is different. The power of God is just as strong all around them, but if they don't speak those few words, they didn't get it. Speak those few words, and they did.

It's just so confusing to me.

I believe that's the point of this thread, that is we cannot condemn people who have not spoken in tongues.

TGBTG · #5 01-22-2011, 11:41 AM

How about the two-steppers ???

*AQuietPlace* · #6 01-22-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I believe that's the point of this thread, that is we cannot condemn people who have not spoken in tongues.

You can say you (three-steppers) are reserving judgment, but in reality, you believe that person must utter those two or three words in another language, or they're not saved.

It seems that in Bro. Blume's summation above, the bottom line is - We don't know.

But how can we NOT KNOW about something so important?? We are placed here on this earth, given a puzzle, and if we figure it out correctly we're in? Figure it out incorrectly and we're doomed forever? How can God have been so vague about something so important?

TGBTG · #7 01-22-2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

You can say you (three-steppers) are reserving judgment, but in reality, you believe that person must utter those two or three words in another language, or they're not saved.

It seems that in Bro. Blume's summation above, the bottom line is - We don't know.

But how can we NOT KNOW about something so important?? We are placed here on this earth, given a puzzle, and if we figure it out correctly we're in? Figure it out incorrectly and we're doomed forever? How can God have been so vague about something so important?

I think you mistakenly assumed I was a three-stepper because I said "we cannot condemn." I said "we" just to say Christians who believe such.
I however believe we are justified by faith and we have peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ. For me, that is whole point of the gospel. Faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

*AQuietPlace* · #8 01-22-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I think you mistakenly assumed I was a three-stepper because I said "we cannot condemn." I said "we" just to say Christians who believe such.

No, meant 'general you', not you in particular.

TGBTG · #9 01-22-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

No, meant 'general you', not you in particular.

Ha..

mfblume · #10 01-22-2011, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

You can say you (three-steppers) are reserving judgment, but in reality, you believe that person must utter those two or three words in another language, or they're not saved.

It seems that in Bro. Blume's summation above, the bottom line is - We don't know.

But how can we NOT KNOW about something so important?? We are placed here on this earth, given a puzzle, and if we figure it out correctly we're in? Figure it out incorrectly and we're doomed forever? How can God have been so vague about something so important?

There is always the required element of FAITH in ANYTHING to do with God. And so, I go with all the Word says and not look at it as what is not necessary, but "What all can I have?"

But the point in contrasting the positions contrasting two experiences of Spirit from tongues or not is irrefutably unknown.