The State of the UPC

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I see a higher percentage of young preachers at the more conservative meetings than I do the general UPC events.

I think the higher degree of respect and esteem for the ministry that tends to be found among this segment of our movement is at least partially responsible for this.

Another thing that must be taken into account is the fact that today's young ministers don't have the same fascination with licenses and fellowship cards that their fathers did.

I know plenty of young preachers that just don't care to be licensed. They don't see that much benefit.

All that having been said, the shrinking number of young preachers is quickly becoming a matter of grave concern to the org.

Around here, the UC church is one of the largest Apostolic churches around.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Around here, the UC church is one of the largest Apostolic churches around.

I just preached there, if you are talking about Brother Howard, about a month ago.

There are a boatload of young preachers in that church.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Oddly enough, I haven't received an invitation.

The insults don't bother me, Coonskinner.

I'm looking for every lifeboat of fellowship I can find.

I intend to join with several of these groups.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Charnock

The insults don't bother me, Coonskinner.

I'm looking for every lifeboat of fellowship I can find.

I intend to join with several of these groups.

That wasn't intended as an insult, but rather a humorous comment.

Sorry if it came across wrong.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I just preached there, if you are talking about Brother Howard, about a month ago.

There are a boatload of young preachers in that church.

Yes, I know - and that is who I'm talking about. I've never known any of my friends to complain about rules or standards; what they complain about is inconsistency, unfairness, injustice and politics.

I knew of a young man who left that church and, let's just say he didn't fare well with the lack of boundaries. Now, you could argue that he didn't fare well with boundaries because he'd never been left to his own devices before, but regardless--he needed those fences, and outside of them he floundered. He lost his ministry, his marriage and his Christianity.

It is my firm opinion that some people need stricter boundaries than others in order to live for God. They have weaknesses that require more protection from sin. IMO, the libs fail to address the problem, and brush it off as unimportant or explain it away, but it still needs to be addressed. As my girls are growing up in the church, we have been careful about placing extra-biblical constraints on them, and when subjects come up, we study them together. To a point, we let them make their own decisions about the *optional* things; however, as a parent, I can say with assurance that I would rather see my children erring on the side of conservative than playing too close to the world. So when THEY choose a more conservative bent, I feel some measure of relief. My theory has been that if they make the choices, they will *own* them and won't toss them out the window the minute they're out of our house. We have rarely used the "just because I said so" approach; we have used the "because God said so" approach.

I suppose that puts me back on that other thread at "better safe than sorry." I'm sure that means I need my head examined, since I obviously don't feel deep down that the grace of God is adequate or something....

I see so many young people who have walked away as soon as they turn 18 or 21 or go to college. Sometimes I think it's because of rules, but not because there are rules - rather because of inconsistency and unfairness in the application of those rules. Rather because no one is making an effort to make sense, but only issuing lengthy apologetic positions on each rule. I say not making an effort, because it only takes minimal effort for us to sit down with our kids, Bible in hand, and take a few minutes to explore a topic. There are either parents, pastors, teachers or all of the above who are not taking the time to do this with young people.

I know I'm rambling at this point, but bottom line, it boils down to kids needing a purpose and needing to ferret out their identity, and they will lean towards groups that offer at least a semblance of something they can be passionate about. One way or the other.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Yes, I know - and that is who I'm talking about. I've never known any of my friends to complain about rules or standards; what they complain about is inconsistency, unfairness, injustice and politics.

I knew of a young man who left that church and, let's just say he didn't fare well with the lack of boundaries. Now, you could argue that he didn't fare well with boundaries because he'd never been left to his own devices before, but regardless--he needed those fences, and outside of them he floundered. He lost his ministry, his marriage and his Christianity.

It is my firm opinion that some people need stricter boundaries than others in order to live for God. They have weaknesses that require more protection from sin. IMO, the libs fail to address the problem, and brush it off as unimportant or explain it away, but it still needs to be addressed. As my girls are growing up in the church, we have been careful about placing extra-biblical constraints on them, and when subjects come up, we study them together. To a point, we let them make their own decisions about the *optional* things; however, as a parent, I can say with assurance that I would rather see my children erring on the side of conservative than playing too close to the world. So when THEY choose a more conservative bent, I feel some measure of relief. My theory has been that if they make the choices, they will *own* them and won't toss them out the window the minute they're out of our house. We have rarely used the "just because I said so" approach; we have used the "because God said so" approach.

I suppose that puts me back on that other thread at "better safe than sorry." I'm sure that means I need my head examined, since I obviously don't feel deep down that the grace of God is adequate or something....

I see so many young people who have walked away as soon as they turn 18 or 21 or go to college. Sometimes I think it's because of rules, but not because there are rules - rather because of inconsistency and unfairness in the application of those rules. Rather because no one is making an effort to make sense, but only issuing lengthy apologetic positions on each rule. I say not making an effort, because it only takes minimal effort for us to sit down with our kids, Bible in hand, and take a few minutes to explore a topic. There are either parents, pastors, teachers or all of the above who are not taking the time to do this with young people.

I know I'm rambling at this point, but bottom line, it boils down to kids needing a purpose and needing to ferret out their identity, and they will lean towards groups that offer at least a semblance of something they can be passionate about. One way or the other.

Heaven forbid we would teach principles and maturity so people like that would not fail when they don't have some legalist directing every aspect of their life. If someone is praying, studying God's word, accepting the word of teachers and preachers into his life then he would not fail in the way you describe. It always comes down to a persons relationship with God and submission to him. The controlling churches, pastors and excessive rules only artificially keep a person "right".

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Charnock

The insults don't bother me, Coonskinner.

I'm looking for every lifeboat of fellowship I can find.

I intend to join with several of these groups.

You can't imagine how much guys like me would embrace you, support you, love you and accept you!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by CC1

Heaven forbid we would teach principles and maturity so people like that would not fail when they don't have some legalist directing every aspect of their life. If someone is praying, studying God's word, accepting the word of teachers and preachers into his life then he would not fail in the way you describe. It always comes down to a persons relationship with God and submission to him. The controlling churches, pastors and excessive rules only artificially keep a person "right".

And I agree with you [too], CC1; however, IMO, people who have grown up in conservative churches have a very difficult time surviving outside of that environment. They grow up with inherent *weaknesses* that don't allow them to feel confident in their salvation when they partake of certain liberties. Surely that makes sense? In order to continue their walk with God, they must continue in a very protected environment. I had a friend of mine tell me that when she cut her hair, put on makeup and put on jeans, that she felt "anything" was then permissible. I thought that was the craziest thing I had ever heard, although I didn't tell her that! Is that logical? No. Is it reality for many people? Yes. Paul recognized this and instructed people who were able to take liberties to be cautious in the presence of those who were weaker. What I see more often is libs who take delight in not only mocking the weaknesses of others, but rub their faces in the fact that they are unnecessarily abstaining from one thing or another. This is both unbiblical and unChristian.

Someone who grows up being taught principles and taught to apply them correctly will be a stronger Christian overall; however, since this requires a very strong personal relationship with God, then you will see fewer emerge truly successful. To that end, you are right, because many in conservative churches are not anymore successful, but they have been given the tools with which to appear successful.

*sigh*

It's hard to untangle it all. I have to look at all these issues through my own paradigm and how I was raised, and of course, the way I was raised is going to affect my perspective. My *relief*, for instance, when one of my daughters decides to wear skirts and leave her hair uncut, even though I don't think it's a sin to trim your hair or wear pants. Partially influenced by how I was raised, and partially influenced by my observation of others who have taken certain paths and ended up WAY off course because eschewing the rules meant a rejection of it all. And yes, I know, not everyone that rejects rules rejects doctrine. I'm not saying that--but yet it HAS happened.

Add to all that, there are benefits (some practical, some spiritual) to living a lifestyle that is conservative minded, and I don't pretend to not see them simply because some of the choices aren't necessary to salvation.

Anyway...I'm trying to be transparent here, and transparency reveals that I am conflicted.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I see so many young people who have walked away as soon as they turn 18 or 21 or go to college.

Hope this is not too far off topic but it has been my experience and now observation that there is a severe lack of teaching of christian thinking in the church. A lot of teaching on the 'facts' of truth but little to nothing of how to think as a christian. As soon as they encounter an educated prof. they are easily overwhelmed or just yell 'atheist' and close shop. The heritage I came from (generally speaking) does not equip it's youth.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Hope this is not too far off topic but it has been my experience and now observation that there is a severe lack of teaching of christian thinking in the church. A lot of teaching on the 'facts' of truth but little to nothing of how to think as a christian. As soon as they encounter an educated prof. they are easily overwhelmed or just yell 'atheist' and close shop. The heritage I came from (generally speaking) does not equip it's youth.

You're right, and this is a big problem. There's not much exploration of scripture; more of just "this is what you must believe."