THIS is True Love!!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Recite" this:



"Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance..."

Can YOU say that YOU believe that? All of your posts have denied this very thing and that is why you're getting some flak. This statement comes right out of the United Pentecostal Church's Manual and Articles of Faith.

Do you affirm these statements concerning "Repentance" and the "forgiveness of sins?"

Luke 24:47 (repentance and remission of sins preached in his name) correlates with Acts 2:38, IMO. I would have to say that Mark 1:4 says that John preached the "baptism" of repentance for the remission of sins.

Not any different than what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost - Repent and be baptized, in the name, for the remission of sins.

I think both elements must be involved for the remission of sins.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Luke 24:47 (repentance and remission of sins preached in his name) correlates with Acts 2:38, IMO. I would have to say that Mark 1:4 says that John preached the "baptism" of repentance for the remission of sins.

Not any different than what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost - Repent and be baptized, in the name, for the remission of sins.

I think both elements must be involved for the remission of sins.

Those are good points, Pressy, however Opie Deuce's complaint was that he was "not allowed to recited United Pentecostal Church doctrine." Thus, I have turned to the official statements of the United Pentecostal Church on these matters.

Baptism was NEVER said to be "for the remission of sins" in any UPC document until 1973, when the Fundamental Doctrine was amended to include this prepositional phrase. Still, whether the prepositional phrase refers to "Repent" or "Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ" is as ambiguous in the new Fundamental Doctrine as it is in the Bible itself.

Concerning Water Baptism, the Articles of Faith of the UPC read:

Water Baptism

The scriptural mode of water baptism is immersion, and is only for those who have fully repented, having turned from their sins and a love of the world. It should be administered by a duly authorized minister of the Gospel, in obedience to the Word of God, and in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; thus obeying and fulfilling Matthew 28:19.

Note: I have added the word "Acts" to the individual references above so that the Bible Passage Look Up Tool on AFF will link to each passage. The actual wording in the UPC AoF is:

"... according to the Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; thus obeying and fulfilling Matthew 28:19."

According to the OFFICIAL teachings of the United Pentecostal Church, sins are REMITTED at repentance. Water Baptism is "only" for those who have repented (and thus already have received the 'remission of sin').

That's been the official teaching since the merger in 1945.

OPII - would you care to "recite" directly from the Manual and the Articles of Faith? Go for it!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Those are good points, Pressy, however Opie Deuce's complaint was that he was "not allowed to recited United Pentecostal Church doctrine." Thus, I have turned to the official statements of the United Pentecostal Church on these matters.

Baptism was NEVER said to be "for the remission of sins" in any UPC document until 1973, when the Fundamental Doctrine was amended to include this prepositional phrase. Still, whether the prepositional phrase refers to "Repent" or "Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ" is as ambiguous in the new Fundamental Doctrine as it is in the Bible itself.

Concerning Water Baptism, the Articles of Faith of the UPC read:

Water Baptism

The scriptural mode of water baptism is immersion, and is only for those who have fully repented, having turned from their sins and a love of the world. It should be administered by a duly authorized minister of the Gospel, in obedience to the Word of God, and in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5; thus obeying and fulfilling Matthew 28:19.

Note: I have added the word "Acts" to the individual references above so that the Bible Passage Look Up Tool on AFF will link to each passage. The actual wording in the UPC AoF is:

"... according to the Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; thus obeying and fulfilling Matthew 28:19."

According to the OFFICIAL teachings of the United Pentecostal Church, sins are REMITTED at repentance. Water Baptism is "only" for those who have repented (and thus already have received the 'remission of sin').

That's been the official teaching since the merger in 1945.

OPII - would you care to "recite" directly from the Manual and the Articles of Faith? Go for it!

Interesting. I've never heard it preached that way, I don't think. Maybe I just wasn't really listening.

I'm not sure I could agree that "repentance" and "baptism" are ambiguous in the Bible. John was preaching a "baptism" of repentance.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Interesting. I've never heard it preached that way, I don't think. Maybe I just wasn't really listening.

I'm not sure I could agree that "repentance" and "baptism" are ambiguous in the Bible. John was preaching a "baptism" of repentance.

I wasn't saying that either "baptism" nor "repentance" were ambiguous. What's "ambiguous" is the prepositional phrase, "for the remission of sins."

Does this prepositional phrase modify "baptism" or "repentance?" In the end, for the obedient and sincere believer it really is a moot point. We repent and we are baptized. Our sins are remitted.

However, the UPC's "official" documents have always said that "remission of sins" comes at "Repentance and Conversion" and not at baptism. "Water baptism for the remission of sins" at least appears to have been a minority view amongst the brethren early on.

As time went by, there has been an increasing move toward making the prepositional phrase modify "baptism." This is probably the majority opinion now and, I think, represents what you've heard preached. Historically, it does represent a change. So, before guys like OPII "send everyone else to hell" - it would be wise for them to stop and read the actual documents of the org he names.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I wasn't saying that either "baptism" nor "repentance" were ambiguous. What's "ambiguous" is the prepositional phrase, "for the remission of sins."

Does this prepositional phrase modify "baptism" or "repentance?" In the end, for the obedient and sincere believer it really is a moot point. We repent and we are baptized. Our sins are remitted.

However, the UPC's "official" documents have always said that "remission of sins" comes at "Repentance and Conversion" and not at baptism. "Water baptism for the remission of sins" at least appears to have been a minority view amongst the brethren early on.

As time went by, there has been an increasing move toward making the prepositional phrase modify "baptism." This is probably the majority opinion now and, I think, represents what you've heard preached. Historically, it does represent a change. So, before guys like OPII "send everyone else to hell" - it would be wise for them to stop and read the actual documents of the org he names.

This is what I have always been taught and believe!

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I wasn't saying that either "baptism" nor "repentance" were ambiguous. What's "ambiguous" is the prepositional phrase, "for the remission of sins."

Does this prepositional phrase modify "baptism" or "repentance?" In the end, for the obedient and sincere believer it really is a moot point. We repent and we are baptized. Our sins are remitted.

However, the UPC's "official" documents have always said that "remission of sins" comes at "Repentance and Conversion" and not at baptism. "Water baptism for the remission of sins" at least appears to have been a minority view amongst the brethren early on.

As time went by, there has been an increasing move toward making the prepositional phrase modify "baptism." This is probably the majority opinion now and, I think, represents what you've heard preached. Historically, it does represent a change. So, before guys like OPII "send everyone else to hell" - it would be wise for them to stop and read the actual documents of the org he names.

Originally Posted by rgcraig

This is what I have always been taught and believe!

Really? Cuz I was always taught that we repented, then were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and then we received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the way I understood it for all the years that I was in the UPC.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Margies3

Really? Cuz I was always taught that we repented, then were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and then we received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the way I understood it for all the years that I was in the UPC.

As someone who was Born Again in part due to listing to Because of the Times tapes, then several months later was baptized in Jesus Name at a local UPC, I can only attest to how it happened for me.

As Pel said the phrase "for the remission of sins" can be pointing to "repentance" (assuming of course those being baptized repented first).

Also, "for" can mean "because of" and not just "in order to obtain". I am satisfied in knowing that we all fall short of perfect theology.

I am sure my own understanding and my interpretation of scripture is something less than perfect. God knows, and He alone will judge. I actually find that comforting. I rest in Jesus.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Margies3

Really? Cuz I was always taught that we repented, then were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and then we received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the way I understood it for all the years that I was in the UPC.

This is how I was always taught as well.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Margies3

Really? Cuz I was always taught that we repented, then were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and then we received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the way I understood it for all the years that I was in the UPC.

Sorry for the lateness of my reply, Margie... but I think Hoovie and Renda summed it up nicely. There truely is a valid difference of opinion on this one. The "for" (Greek = "εἰς" or "eis") in Acts 2:38, can go either way. It really is silly for some to beat others over the head on this one.

I personally lean toward the "repentance" side of things because of the way "εἰς" is used in such passages as Mark 1:4. John's baptism was a baptism "for the remission of sins" - yet he did not baptize "in Jesus' name." Also, we read here that John's baptism was a "baptism of repentance." How was "the remission of sins" conferred upon those whom John had baptized?

It had to be the repentance coupled with a hopeful looking forward to of the One that John said would follow (Matthew 3:11-12 and Acts 19:4-5). I also see "the remission of sins" repeatedly attached to conversion, faith, and belief in Jesus Christ as discussed throughout this thread already.

Reading documents such as the PCI Manual, The Manual of the United Pentecostal Church and the UPC's Articles of Faith, we read repeatedly that "genuine repentance" wrought "the remission of sins." That was the historic teaching of the UPC.

In this context, OPII has complained that he cannot "recite the core beliefs of the UPC" on this forum. I have not seen any admins put up any "Stop Signs" even when he gave a rather lopsided "recitation" of those beliefs. He has, however, run into some flak here from other posters because apparently OPII was simply unaware of the historical teachings of the UPC.

[OldPathsII]

Originally Posted by Margies3

Really? Cuz I was always taught that we repented, then were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and then we received the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the way I understood it for all the years that I was in the UPC.

You know, somewhere I missed that verse, "Repent for the remission of your sins." I did read one, however that says, "Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins." Now that verse I've heard of!