The Thief on the Cross

Monarchianism · #1 03-10-2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

So how can some believe it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to save a man during deathbed repentance? They can believe such a person can be transported and baptized by God himself and then speak in tongues in such a way that no one knows he did BUT they cannot believe that God can just save the dying man by his repentance. It amazes me.

I even remember a story where Jesus forgave a person once. He asked if it was easier to say thy sins be forgiven thee or to say arise and walk. I think he was amazed that they could believe he could cause her to talk but couldn't forgive her sins. Just like that I'm amazed that people can believe God can miraculously baptize a dying man and let him speak in tongues without no one knowing but they cannot believe he can just forgive him on his deathbed.

That's not the point. Are you saying that it is possible for God to lie now?
Doesn't the Word say that a man "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit?
If english means anything then "must" is not a "if you want to."

God cannot lie.

onefaith2 · #2 03-10-2011, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

That's not the point. Are you saying that it is possible for God to lie now?
Doesn't the Word say that a man "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit?
If english means anything then "must" is not a "if you want to."

God cannot lie.

Jfrog seems to be arguing that the birth of water and spirit can happen even on the deathbed, which would conclude God can caused someone to be rebirthed despite not being baptized in water or speaking in tongues.. John3:5 therefore wouldn't refute the point.

Monarchianism · #3 03-10-2011, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Jfrog seems to be arguing that the birth of water and spirit can happen even on the deathbed, which would conclude God can caused someone to be rebirthed despite not being baptized in water or speaking in tongues.. John3:5 therefore wouldn't refute the point.

God gives everyone a chance to set their life straight, and to decide what to do with that time. (Obey Acts 2:38)
I would assume that the woman or man on deathbed knows this way.
To give everyone an opportunity is to let all flesh know about us, eventually.

It is possible for God to reach their heart while on their deathbed to Obey it. And if they did before they passed on, then I would expect to see them in heaven. No other way around it though. You're either in or you're out. You either truly believe, or you don't. And if you don't obey, you don't.

jfrog · #4 03-10-2011, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

God gives everyone a chance to set their life straight, and to decide what to do with that time. (Obey Acts 2:38)
I would assume that the woman or man on deathbed knows this way.
To give everyone an opportunity is to let all flesh know about us, eventually.

It is possible for God to reach their heart while on their deathbed to Obey it. And if they did before they passed on, then I would expect to see them in heaven. No other way around it though. You're either in or you're out. You either truly believe, or you don't. And if you don't obey, you don't.

God is no respecter of persons. If he can save a healthy man then he can save a man on his death bed just as easily.

Monarchianism · #5 03-10-2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

God is no respecter of persons. If he can save a healthy man then he can save a man on his death bed just as easily.

If that were you hanging on the cross, and you asked for forgiveness, then I would expect Jesus to say the same to YOU.

Luke 24:24-57 records that just before His ascension, Jesus opened the disciples' understanding. It was necessary that their understanding be opened, and many today need this same operation in order to understand the Scriptures. The disciples had their understanding opened so that they could grasp the vast importance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

From Jason Dulle:
"In II Corinthians 5:21 Paul said, "For he made him [Jesus] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Jesus takes our sin upon Himself even though He did not commit the sin, while we take His righteousness upon ourselves even though we did not perform it." (Obey Acts 2:38 to receive it)

Only the righteousness can come forth through the Spirit. ( Hence, we do not perform it ) Obey Acts 2:38 to receive it.

How do we know if we have received it?: http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/tongues.htm

An analogy: "Where there's smoke, there's fire." It is the fire that burns down the house, not the smoke. But when we are three blocks away we know that a house is burning because we see the smoke.

1.) Repentance = Death.
2.) Baptism = Burial.
3!!!) Holy Spirit = Resurrection !!

[ Amplified Bible Version ]
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

jfrog · #6 03-10-2011, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

That's not the point. Are you saying that it is possible for God to lie now?
Doesn't the Word say that a man "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit?
If english means anything then "must" is not a "if you want to."

God cannot lie.

Did God lie when Peter spoke that those who repent and are baptized in Jesus' name shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? How many do you know that have came and repented and even been baptized that have died never receiving the Holy Ghost?

Monarchianism · #7 03-10-2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Did God lie when Peter spoke that those who repent and are baptized in Jesus' name shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? How many do you know that have came and repented and even been baptized that have died never receiving the Holy Ghost?

None.

Why do two, and not the last?
What does "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit mean to you?

jfrog · #8 03-10-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

None.

Why do two, and not the last?
What does "must" be born of the water and of the Spirit mean to you?

Really? You don't know any that way? I'm amazed. All I can say is give it time and you will.

As far as doing two but not the last... the last isn't something we do... the last (receiving the Holy Ghost) is a promise and is something God does, not us.

What does being born of the water and Spirit mean to me? Being born of water means to follow (a)the one who came by water and blood, Jesus ((a)1 John 5:6). Being born of Spirit means to believe the testimony that the Spirit gave of Jesus.

Monarchianism · #9 03-10-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Really? You don't know any that way? I'm amazed. All I can say is give it time and you will.

As far as doing two but not the last... the last isn't something we do... the last (receiving the Holy Ghost) is a promise and is something God does, not us.

What does being born of the water and Spirit mean to me? Being born of water means to follow (a)the one who came by water and blood, Jesus ((a)1 John 5:6). Being born of Spirit means to believe the testimony that the Spirit gave of Jesus.

Even if I "give it time," the Word declares that they won't make it w/o it.
In receiving the Holy Spirit, I meant seeking for it.
It's not every time that a person is baptized and it comes then and there.

Sorry it took so long. I was analyzing it in different versions, but don't have to! Verse 4 speaks of being born of God. Verse 6 speaks of the Spirit as the witness. Now, give me a person in this chapter that received it on "easy-believism."

jfrog · #10 03-10-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

Even if I "give it time," the Word declares that they won't make it w/o it.

??????????? And that has nothing to do with what I asked. See my next paragraph for what I was asking.

In receiving the Holy Spirit, I meant seeking for it.
It's not every time that a person is baptized and it comes then and there.

I'm not talking about it coming then and there. I'm talking about the people who seek (after repenting and being baptized) it 30 times, 40 times, 50 times or more and they don't get it. And so they go on through life without the Holy Ghost and eventually die. What I am asking is whether God lied when he promised these repented and baptized people the Holy Ghost and they never get it?

Sorry it took so long. I was analyzing it in different versions, but don't have to! Verse 4 speaks of being born of God. Verse 6 speaks of the Spirit as the witness. Now, give me a person in this chapter that received it on "easy-believism."

You asked my opinion on what it meant to be born of water and Spirit. I told you MY OPINION. I also gave you a reference verse, not because the reference said what I was saying. I wouldn't have had to give you my opinion if it did. Instead i gave you the reference verse only to help point you toward what i was thinking (and to verify that Jesus was the who came of water and blood). It was not a proof-text (at least not about my opinion). So I'm not sure why you are asking me questions about it as if I was using it to prove my opinion.

I wanted to add one thing. Saying the Spirit is witness has nothing to do with tongues in this chapter.