Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I see this as a veil, but that is a cultural thing and veils were common and still are among muslims, etc. It is an eastern thing, not a Christian thing, really. Today in our culture, veils do not make someone think of submission of the woman, So it is moot here in our part of the world. Paul appealed to them to abide by things that the world abode by. It was shocking to the world to see women unveiled since the world even did that! lol

But no where does the bible say to dress a way to appeal to the world to show them we are Christians. That is my point. Doing something the bible said does not mean it is for the world to know we are Christians. There are other reasons than for the world to know we are saved. Somehow this idea was added to the bible that these things tell the world we are saved, when that is not their purposes. ONLY LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER is meant to show the world who we are. Let's take Jesus' words and stick with them and not add to the bible. It's like many apostolics have left the words of Jesus and exchanged them for words about clothing. Scary.

But, if the Bible is telling us to do something (short hair on men, veil or long hair on women), isn't that a distinction for us?

Of course, it doesn't make us saved. I am only staying saved as much as I submit myself to God. But, really, if the Bible is instructing us to do anything, it is a separation from what the world is doing. It is a mark for us, isn't it?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, if the Bible is telling us to do something (short hair on men, veil or long hair on women), isn't that a distinction for us?

Distinction is involved, for sure. But to show the world we are saved? No. To show who is male and who is female. lol

Of course, it doesn't make us saved. I am only staying saved as much as I submit myself to God. But, really, if the Bible is instructing us to do anything, it is a separation from what the world is doing. It is a mark for us, isn't it?

I do not believe so. We have to be careful about these things. Those who claim clothing is a mark of Christianity often overlook what Jesus explicitly stated was a mark. And the true distinction for being saved is buried with something else.

Think of it. Pharisees uses apparel for distinction of serving God, and Jesus said they were whited sepulchers. Jesus had to stress to them the heart. This is the VERY problem we see with stressing clothing as distinction to the lost.

[mfblume]

When Jesus spoke of what the world sees to know we are saved, it is something they do not need to be trained to recognize we are saved. They automatically get the impression of God when they see believers loving each other. But to see people with certain forms of hairstyles and clothing does not bring GOD to their minds. The world would have to be taught that long hair on a woman means she is a Christian, because that is not what comes to their minds when they see long hair. Same with modest apparel. The world does NOT think of Christianity when they see modest apparel unless they were first somehow taught that. And then it only becomes a certain denomination's way of uniformity, in their minds.

I had a sinner say to me once that Pentecostal girls wear long hair and dresses. That town had a large UPC church in it. Had the church been tiny and few attended there is no way he would know it was a pentecostal thing. Word simply got around. Did it tell him they were Christians? Not it told him they were from a specific denomination. This gets the organizationally minded believers going, but it does not effect a reference to God. He simply saw them as adherents to a certain denomination.

But compare that with love for one another. Loving one another goes beyond apparel for identity and into an entirely different and meaningful level. It points to God. It touches hearts. God is "LOVE". He is not "modest clothing of long and short hair". Jesus and the apostles led by the Spirit picked their words carefully. And we have to be careful to notice what REASONS they actually stated for certain things. And the only one that touches the world, that the world immediately knows is God, is love for one another. It's an instinct in the human spirit.

Think of a tiny church in a town and the believers there have an incredible love for one another. Compare that with a tiny church with dress standards. The church membership in town would be so small that the reputation would not work. The commoners would not see the dress standard and think "spiritual". But they sure would connect the love of God with God!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Distinction is involved, for sure. But to show the world we are saved? No. To show who is male and who is female. lol



I do not believe so. We have to be careful about these things. Those who claim clothing is a mark of Christianity often overlook what Jesus explicitly stated was a mark. And the true distinction for being saved is buried with something else.

Think of it. Pharisees uses apparel for distinction of serving God, and Jesus said they were whited sepulchers. Jesus had to stress to them the heart. This is the VERY problem we see with stressing clothing as distinction to the lost.

I agree with everything that you have said. My point was not that it proved we are saved.

But, again, there is a marked distinction in the Bible. Whether the distinction is presented negatively or positively, there is still a distinction between the church and the world.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with everything that you have said. My point was not that it proved we are saved.

But, again, there is a marked distinction in the Bible. Whether the distinction is presented negatively or positively, there is still a distinction between the church and the world.

A distinction is there for sure. But I am talking about what we do in order to show the world we are saved. That is the issue to which I responded.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

A distinction is there for sure. But I am talking about what we do in order to show the world we are saved. That is the issue to which I responded.

Right, I understood what you were responding to.

I was coming, solely, from the point that we cannot ever overlook that there is an apparent distinction involved.

The using of that distinction, as a salvational method, is a whole other subject to me. Because, it normally, IMO, clouds that we do have a distinction involved at all.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, I understood what you were responding to.

I was coming, solely, from the point that we cannot ever overlook that there is an apparent distinction involved.

The using of that distinction, as a salvational method, is a whole other subject to me. Because, it normally, IMO, clouds that we do have a distinction involved at all.

I think everyone knows there is a distinction, anyway. The world hates and we care. The world mocks God and we worship Him. The whole issue is distinction. I really do not see how distinction can be buried if we tried, without simply denying God altogether. But giving a message to the world about who is saved is another story altogether.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think everyone knows there is a distinction, anyway. The world hates and we care. The world mocks God and we worship Him. The whole issue is distinction. I really do not see how distinction can be buried if we tried, without simply denying God altogether. But giving a message to the world about who is saved is another story altogether.

I agree!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, if the Bible is telling us to do something (short hair on men, veil or long hair on women), isn't that a distinction for us?

Of course, it doesn't make us saved. I am only staying saved as much as I submit myself to God. But, really, if the Bible is instructing us to do anything, it is a separation from what the world is doing. It is a mark for us, isn't it?

He wasn't telling them to do something different than the world was doing, he was telling them to DO what the world was doing. It wasn't a mark of separation - quite the opposite.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

He wasn't telling them to do something different than the world was doing, he was telling them to DO what the world was doing. It wasn't a mark of separation - quite the opposite.

Profound point.