DA No Longer an OP

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. I John 3:15

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

I would love to see proof of that by the scriptures. The only place we can find out WHEN someone receives the Spirit is the book of Acts, as far as I can tell. The Spirit is given to those who have faith but the real question lies in WHEN it happens. Does it happen at faith? Frankly, I don't see any difference in the baptism of the Spirit and the initial indwelling of the Spirit.

1 John 4:14 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I would love to see proof of that by the scriptures. The only place we can find out WHEN someone receives the Spirit is the book of Acts, as far as I can tell. The Spirit is given to those who have faith but the real question lies in WHEN it happens. Does it happen at faith? Frankly, I don't see any difference in the baptism of the Spirit and the initial indwelling of the Spirit.

1 John 4:14 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

galations 5 is fruit of the Spirit, which can be produced by anyone who God lives in whether they spoke in tounges or not.

again people do not seek God, God seeks them, and you couldnt even begin to acknowledge Jesus as your saviour unless the Spirit of the Lord was in you.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by acerrak

galations 5 is fruit of the Spirit, which can be produced by anyone who God lives in whether they spoke in tounges or not.

again people do not seek God, God seeks them, and you couldnt even begin to acknowledge Jesus as your saviour unless the Spirit of the Lord was in you.

I disagree with reformed theology for the most part.

People seek God because God by his grace draws them to himself and leads them to repentance but he doesn't make them repent. God gives every man a measure of faith so that when presented with the gospel, the word of God, we can either say "yes" or "no". We can acknowledge Jesus as Lord just as they those who converted to Christ in the book of Acts did BEFORE they were filled with the Spirit of God.


As for 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost

Paul is saying that it is only by the Spirit of God that someone can say in the prophetic that Jesus is the Lord and cannot call Jesus accursed. So if someone does say that Jesus is not Lord or that Jesus is accursed then you know that that person is not speaking by the Spirit of God. Paul is teaching this in the context of spiritual gifts and not salvation.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I disagree with reformed theology for the most part.

People seek God because God by his grace draws them to himself and leads them to repentance but he doesn't make them repent. God gives every man a measure of faith so that when presented with the gospel, the word of God, we can either say "yes" or "no". We can acknowledge Jesus as Lord just as they those who converted to Christ in the book of Acts did BEFORE they were filled with the Spirit of God.


As for 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost

Paul is saying that it is only by the Spirit of God that someone can say in the prophetic that Jesus is the Lord and cannot call Jesus accursed. So if someone does say that Jesus is not Lord or that Jesus is accursed then you know that that person is not speaking by the Spirit of God. Paul is teaching this in the context of spiritual gifts and not salvation.

I didnt say anything about God making them repent. I said you wont seek God until he opens your eyes

john 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Im not preaching predistination, im telling you unless the Spirit of God draws you, then your not gonna seek Jesus, serious its just that simple.

Your not gonna wake up one morning and say im gonna go to church, not gonna happen. we all will spend our lives in a rioutous living camping out in the pig pin until the father draws us.

thats what i said, i didnt comment on predistination or make a point about calvinism

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by acerrak

I didnt say anything about God making them repent. I said you wont seek God until he opens your eyes

john 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Im not preaching predistination, im telling you unless the Spirit of God draws you, then your not gonna seek Jesus, serious its just that simple.

Your not gonna wake up one morning and say im gonna go to church, not gonna happen. we all will spend our lives in a rioutous living camping out in the pig pin until the father draws us.

thats what i said, i didnt comment on predistination or make a point about calvinism

Okay, I agreed with you on this point. I thought I made that clear in my response to you. It was the second point you made about not being able to say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit indwelling a person beforehand. Totally disagree with that and explained why I do, but you didn't respond to my comment.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay, I agreed with you on this point. I thought I made that clear in my response to you. It was the second point you made about not being able to say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit indwelling a person beforehand. Totally disagree with that and explained why I do, but you didn't respond to my comment.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit

I belive upon conversion the Spirit lives inside of you. One does not have to speak with tounges to show evidence of the Spirit. but that was the point i was trying to make. I know any one can say the words Jesus is Lord, but to really mean in, by living life for God is proof of the spirit.

matthew 7:17-20
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them

you will know them by fruits, ok well what are the fruits

Galations 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

you mean john 4:15. Could there be a difference between God dwelling in you and the holy ghost dwelling in you through spirit baptism?

When we invite Jesus into our lives, He accepts that invitation and comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Ghost Baptism (HGB) is a separate work of the Spirit which happens after He comes in to dwell. The HGB is the Spirit coming upon, or falling upon a person.

This is from page 83 of a book titled Charisma Versus Charismania by Chuck Smith copyright 1992 and describes the difference.

The Spirit and the Believer
There are three Greek prepositions used in the New Testament
to designate the different relationships of the Spirit
to the believer: para, en, and epi. In John 14:17 Jesus said
to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit, “Ye know him;
for he dwelleth with [para] you and shall be in [en] you.”
Here a twofold relationship is expressed: para (with) and en
(in). The Holy Spirit was with us prior to our conversion. He
is the One who brought us conviction of sin and revealed
Christ as the answer. When we accepted Jesus as our Savior
and invited Him into our lives, the Holy Spirit began to
indwell us.

But God has something more—the beautiful empowering
through the epi relationship. Note that this is what
Jesus was promising His disciples just prior to His ascension.
In Luke 24:49 He said, “Behold, I send the promise of
my Father upon [epi] you” or “over you.” In Acts 1:8 He
said, “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy [Spirit]
is come upon [epi] you.”

We read in Acts 10:44 that the Holy Spirit descended
“upon” the Gentile believers in the house of Cornelius:
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy [Spirit] fell
upon [epi] all of them which heard the word.” In Acts 19:6,
when Paul laid hands upon the Ephesian believers, the
Holy Spirit came upon [epi] them.

We read in Acts 8 that Philip had gone to Samaria and
preached Christ unto them; many people believed Philip’s
preaching of the things of the kingdom of God and the
name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized. If there is
just one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), then we must accept that
at this point the Samaritan believers were baptized by the
Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the
Holy Spirit began to indwell them. It is obvious, however,
that there was yet a further relationship to the Holy Spirit
to be received, for when the church in Jerusalem heard that
the Samaritans had received the gospel, they sent Peter and
John unto them that they might pray for them to receive
the Holy Spirit, for as yet He had fallen upon [epi] none of
them.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Sam

When we invite Jesus into our lives, He accepts that invitation and comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Ghost Baptism (HGB) is a separate work of the Spirit which happens after He comes in to dwell. The HGB is the Spirit coming upon, or falling upon a person.

This is from page 83 of a book titled Charisma Versus Charismania by Chuck Smith copyright 1992 and describes the difference.

The Spirit and the Believer
There are three Greek prepositions used in the New Testament
to designate the different relationships of the Spirit
to the believer: para, en, and epi. In John 14:17 Jesus said
to His disciples concerning the Holy Spirit, “Ye know him;
for he dwelleth with [para] you and shall be in [en] you.”
Here a twofold relationship is expressed: para (with) and en
(in). The Holy Spirit was with us prior to our conversion. He
is the One who brought us conviction of sin and revealed
Christ as the answer. When we accepted Jesus as our Savior
and invited Him into our lives, the Holy Spirit began to
indwell us.

But God has something more—the beautiful empowering
through the epi relationship. Note that this is what
Jesus was promising His disciples just prior to His ascension.
In Luke 24:49 He said, “Behold, I send the promise of
my Father upon [epi] you” or “over you.” In Acts 1:8 He
said, “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy [Spirit]
is come upon [epi] you.”

We read in Acts 10:44 that the Holy Spirit descended
“upon” the Gentile believers in the house of Cornelius:
“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy [Spirit] fell
upon [epi] all of them which heard the word.” In Acts 19:6,
when Paul laid hands upon the Ephesian believers, the
Holy Spirit came upon [epi] them.

We read in Acts 8 that Philip had gone to Samaria and
preached Christ unto them; many people believed Philip’s
preaching of the things of the kingdom of God and the
name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized. If there is
just one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), then we must accept that
at this point the Samaritan believers were baptized by the
Spirit into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), and the
Holy Spirit began to indwell them. It is obvious, however,
that there was yet a further relationship to the Holy Spirit
to be received, for when the church in Jerusalem heard that
the Samaritans had received the gospel, they sent Peter and
John unto them that they might pray for them to receive
the Holy Spirit, for as yet He had fallen upon [epi] none of
them.

sam, what verse or veses do you use to believe that the holy spirit indwells at faith/repentance?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

sam, what verse or veses do you use to believe that the holy spirit indwells at faith/repentance?

Ephesians 1:12-13 indicates that to me.
So does Galatians 3:24-29

So does Romans 8:1-4, 9 etc

Also verses like 1 John 5:1, 4-5, 9-13

If we are justified/saved/born again by faith (Romans 10:9-13; John 3:14-18, 36) it is my opinion that Jesus comes in to dwell as the Holy Spirit when we ask Him.

It is my opinion that the classic accounts used by three-steppers to teach that the Holy Ghost Baptism is the birth of the Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; 8:5-17, 26-40; 9:1-18; 10:34-48; 19:1-7) actually show the Holy Ghost Baptism to be an experience subsequent to and separate from justification/salvation/regeneration.