Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Romans 5 teaches we inherit sin natue. Augustine never wrote Romans 5.

specific verses

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

specific verses

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, ...

We are made sinners by adam's sin as much as Christ makes us righteous.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, ...

We are made sinners by adam's sin as much as Christ makes us righteous.

Besides the serious lack of actually saying that you do realize the huge flaw in this don't you? We are sinners because like Adam we sin. Because of Adam and his curse man is given a weakened condition of provision. Thus "many" where made sinners because of Adam's sin.

Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous. ALT

What "caused us" to sin? A sin nature or the curse for man to provide for himself and see death which made him care for his life as a influence? Man original position was of life without fear or knowledge. Mans curse is knowledge that makes faith questionable. ADAM'S INFLUENCE was due toa curse because of his sin in which he had to toil and provide and also realize death. Adam and EVe received a lie that questioned God given knowledge, truth or not. They sinned. We improperly evaluate as well the depth a gravity of life and right and wrong, death and hell.

MAN/ADAM by himself in the flesh sinned as did Eve. We are brought to righeousness by Christ because Christ is beyond the flesh and the perfection
of God made known to man. Thus Adams original condition was passed to man which did not have a divine nature but dependant on God so even we are now. Because one mans sin death passed to all men. = no tree of life. BEcause one man sinned many where made sinners = no divine communion to be perfected in law but weakness in the flesh to do. The consistent contrast of Paul is Spirit vs through the weakness of flesh to do. Are you perfected by the flesh or by the Spirit? Not that the flesh has a "sin nature" but that flesh in itself is not Spiritual nor can it know the mind of God. It is only partial aspect of mans need in this existance. Man needs divine guidance. The flesh simply seeks it own and the mind responds and hears and is influenced by hunger, thirst, pain, or being tired. Man was put in a diffcult situation thus his tendency of man in relation to the curse would cause or influence man to sin under the conditions. Also we are righteous because we obey the gospel. Heb 5:9 We don't have something imputed simply without a response. Your view lack any justice of God toward man.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Besides the serious lack of actually saying that you do realize the huge flaw in this don't you? We are sinners because like Adam we sin. Because of Adam and his curse man is given a weakened condition of provision. Thus "many" where made sinners because of Adam's sin.

Just take what Paul said. Adam's act made us sinners, and it did not say it made us prey for being sinners due to a curse.

Rom 5:19 For even as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted [or, caused to be] sinners, so also through the obedience of the one [Man], the many will be constituted righteous. ALT

What "caused us" to sin? A sin nature or the curse for man to provide for himself and see death which made him care for his life as a influence? Man original position was of life without fear or knowledge. Mans curse is knowledge that makes faith questionable.

Man's curse is knowledge. Where are you getting this from? God did not curse man. And knowledge was not a curse either. God only cursed the ground for man's sake.

ADAM'S INFLUENCE was due toa curse because of his sin in which he had to toil and provide and also realize death. Adam and EVe received a lie that questioned God given knowledge, truth or not. They sinned. We improperly evaluate as well the depth a gravity of life and right and wrong, death and hell.

MAN/ADAM by himself in the flesh sinned as did Eve. We are brought to righeousness by Christ because Christ is beyond the flesh and the perfection
of God made known to man. Thus Adams original condition was passed to man which did not have a divine nature but dependant on God so even we are now. Because one mans sin death passed to all men. = no tree of life. BEcause one man sinned many where made sinners = no divine communion to be perfected in law but weakness in the flesh to do. The consistent contrast of Paul is Spirit vs through the weakness of flesh to do. Are you perfected by the flesh or by the Spirit? Not that the flesh has a "sin nature" but that flesh in itself is not Spiritual nor can it know the mind of God. It is only partial aspect of mans need in this existance. Man needs divine guidance. The flesh simply seeks it own and the mind responds and hears and is influenced by hunger, thirst, pain, or being tired. Man was put in a diffcult situation thus his tendency of man in relation to the curse would cause or influence man to sin under the conditions. Also we are righteous because we obey the gospel. Heb 5:9 We don't have something imputed simply without a response. Your view lack any justice of God toward man.

Here again is your legalism coming forth. We are not righteous because of obedience. Christ is made our righteousness, and being in Christ alone makes us righteous. What made us righteous in 2 Cor 54:21? Obedience? No. Christ became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. Col. 1 shows that God is in Christ, and we are put IN CHRIST by faith, and thereby are also made righteous.

This works based righteousness of yours has to distort what Romans 5 says cannot work with 2 Cor 5:21. You cannot get away from righteousness being justice. Righteousness is RIGHT STANDING as well. That has not room in your theology, though. Your view makes the flesh put its two cents' worth in there every time, and it leads to boasting.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just take what Paul said. Adam's act made us sinners, and it did not say it made us prey for being sinners due to a curse.

seems I don't see your sin nature in the verse.

Man's curse is knowledge. Where are you getting this from? God did not curse man. And knowledge was not a curse either. God only cursed the ground for man's sake.

LOL... he cursed the ground and it would be against us. The law was knowledge yet also a curse. It was blessing and also a curse. LOL "for man's sake" LOL It was a curse against man. I find it funny you say he did not "curse man" YET you beleive we have a sin nature. Man is cursed with death which is external cursing. The ground was cursed which is a external cursing. Man is cursed with things that would bring question to him that was not the norm of his previous existance. That is knowledge. Adam faced his conditions which is new knowledge/trials he would have to deal with NOT BEING PROVIDED FOR. The knowledge of hunger, thirst, pain, death, love, hate in relation to his NEW enviroment apart from his original existance. All of this is application of situations to his emotions. Thus he brought THAT TO US! Thus knowledge of his circumstance, brings interaction with who he is and who God wants him to be. Having to provide, brings a certain knowledge of depravity he would have which would result in fear and still need to have faith. The counter to "faith" is other knowledge and possibility. This is basic natural law.

Here again is your legalism coming forth. We are not righteous because of obedience. Christ is made our righteousness, and being in Christ alone makes us righteous.

We are not in Christ unless we obey. CLEAR SCRIPTURE! Of course we are "righteous" in him. We are not IN HIM UNLESS WE OBEY! lol We cannot be considered righteous unless we obey and we cannot be considered righteous due to sin unless we follow him and his blood cleanses us from our sin. TWO ASPECTS! You make it a forensic righteousness only and that misses the WHOLE of what scripture teaches.

What made us righteous in 2 Cor 54:21? Obedience? No. Christ became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM.

Two different aspects see above. Christ righteousness brought forth the provision of right standing in him in which justice is done toward our sin through repentance. We are not IN HIM unless we obey which is true repentance..

Col. 1 shows that God is in Christ, and we are put IN CHRIST by faith, and thereby are also made righteous.

Faith is obedience. You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.

This works based righteousness of yours has to distort what Romans 5 says cannot work with 2 Cor 5:21. You cannot get away from righteousness being justice. Righteousness is RIGHT STANDING as well. That has not room in your theology, though. Your view makes the flesh put its two cents' worth in there every time, and it leads to boasting.

No you simply don't get the multiple aspects but are just like reformed with a failed understanding how salvation is offered and how we remain in right standing. Salvation is a mongergistic in source by a synergistic relationship. You have no standing without obedience. You claim works based on what I teach, shows you are clueless to what has been said.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Faith is obedience. You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.

Recipe for damnation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is reckoning that which isn't presently perceivable as being so. By faith I accept, and reckon it so, that Christ's very own righteousness is imputed to me. It isn't predicated upon my works... it's predicated upon His... the cross.

One isn't in Christ unless Christ is in them. When Christ abides in us through the Holy Spirit, in that day we accept by faith that Father is in Him, He in us, and we in Him. Oneness with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the byproduct of our partaking of His divine nature. Obedience doesn't earn the divine nature or salvation... it is the result of the indwelling divine nature.

I have to comment on something...

You are not in Christ unless you are obedient from the heart and offer yourself wholly to him.

God doesn't want you to give yourself wholly to Him. In fact, that's part of the problem for most. They want to give something detestable to God, the self. God isn't impressed with your self or your actions. In fact, God desires that your self be ERADICATED. That it be CRUCIFIED with Christ. That your very identity might fade into oblivion and that Christ be formed in you. God doesn't want you to give yourself to Him. He wants to kill your "self" and change your nature, making you holy not because of what you do... but because of what you are.

The only giving of self to God... is the giving of self that God might crucify it in Christ Jesus. After that, it's not by works of obedience, but by faith and a transformed nature.

[LUKE2447]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1072236]Recipe for damnation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is reckoning that which isn't presently perceivable as being so. By faith I accept, and reckon it so, that Christ's very own righteousness is imputed to me. It isn't predicated upon my works... it's predicated upon His... the cross.


twisting points and just like Blume missing the points. Receiving christ's righteousness can only be received by BEING RIGHTEOUS! You cannot receive without FAITH/REPONSE of the heart to receive which is casting off this world and following from the point of hearing.

One isn't in Christ unless Christ is in them. When Christ abides in us through the Holy Spirit, in that day we accept by faith that Father is in Him, He in us, and we in Him. Oneness with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Obedience is the byproduct of our partaking of His divine nature. Obedience doesn't earn the divine nature or salvation... it is the result of the indwelling divine nature.

Obedience is a based on hearing and believing. I don't have to have the HS to obey. I need the HS to be perfected toward him and to come into a new medium of relatioship with God.

So man never obeyed before the imputation of the divine nature? Which is simply receiving his Spirit to work in you. We obey because we hear and from hearing obey from the heart.

God doesn't want you to give yourself wholly to Him. In fact, that's part of the problem for most. They want to give something detestable to God, the self. God isn't impressed with your self or your actions. In fact, God desires that your self be ERADICATED.

As usual abuse of intent of words. Typical Aquila. Won't even deal with the rest.

nothing but herectical imputation doctrine and distortion of what is said.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

seems I don't see your sin nature in the verse.

LOL... he cursed the ground and it would be against us. The law was knowledge yet also a curse. It was blessing and also a curse. LOL "for man's sake" LOL It was a curse against man. I find it funny you say he did not "curse man" YET you beleive we have a sin nature.

The fact is God did not curse man. And sin nature is not a curse from God that is a strawman.

For man's sake means in the place of man, as though ground stood for man, and because it would affect man. Cursing something to affect man is far different than cursing man.

Man is cursed with death which is external cursing.

Man was not "cursed" with death. Death was the outcome of disobedience, like man walking into death, not being cursed with it. You have all these nuances to the statements made int he bible which nuances the bible never relates. Same with your Romans 5 slant. Romans 5 simply said Adam's act made us sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to BECOME sinners.

The ground was cursed which is a external cursing. Man is cursed with things that would bring question to him that was not the norm of his previous existance. That is knowledge.

Wrong. It was not a cursing from God like you are trying to make it out to be.

Adam faced his conditions which is new knowledge/trials he would have to deal with NOT BEING PROVIDED FOR. The knowledge of hunger, thirst, pain, death, love, hate in relation to his NEW enviroment apart from his original existance. All of this is application of situations to his emotions. Thus he brought THAT TO US! Thus knowledge of his circumstance, brings interaction with who he is and who God wants him to be. Having to provide, brings a certain knowledge of depravity he would have which would result in fear and still need to have faith. The counter to "faith" is other knowledge and possibility. This is basic natural law.

We are not in Christ unless we obey. CLEAR SCRIPTURE! Of course we are "righteous" in him. We are not IN HIM UNLESS WE OBEY!

You can keep trying to put your two cents' worth into the reason why we are righteous, but I reject it. Yes we must obey. But our act does not award us righteousness. His act awarded us righteousness. Your view is like saying our approach to the table to eat food is more cause for the food in our bellies than the one who made the food and prepared the table. It is self seeking to glory in self and is ultimately self-righteousness.

lol We cannot be considered righteous unless we obey and we cannot be considered righteous due to sin unless we follow him and his blood cleanses us from our sin. TWO ASPECTS! You make it a forensic righteousness only and that misses the WHOLE of what scripture teaches.

No, you are preaching self-righteousness and emphasizing our obedience. Our obedience only allows Him to give us righteousness, but you are making it into a work directly responsible for making us righteous, and THAT is what the bible is totally against. Pelagianism is heresy! Sorry. Is is pharisaism.

Two different aspects see above. Christ righteousness brought forth the provision of right standing in him in which justice is done toward our sin through repentance. We are not IN HIM unless we obey which is true repentance..

Our obedience to get in Christ is, again, no greater than walking up to the table to eat the food provided for us. The work to provide the food for us is what the preparer accomplished and he deserves the glory. You are trying to make the approach the element worthy of glory instead.

Sorry, I do not buy that pharisaical distortion.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The fact is God did not curse man. And sin nature is not a curse from God that is a strawman.

How did he get a "sin nature" Mike? I don't believe in it. If Adam did not have it how did "man" get it. lol

For man's sake means in the place of man, as though ground stood for man, and because it would affect man. Cursing something to affect man is far different than cursing man.

did you even read CONTEXT Mike.

Man was not "cursed" with death. Death was the outcome of disobedience, like man walking into death, not being cursed with it. You have all these nuances to the statements made int he bible which nuances the bible never relates. Same with your Romans 5 slant. Romans 5 simply said Adam's act made us sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to BECOME sinners


Wrong. It was not a cursing from God like you are trying to make it out to be.



You can keep trying to put your two cents' worth into the reason why we are righteous, but I reject it. Yes we must obey. But our act does not award us righteousness.

So without obedience we we still righteous? Without obedience we are covered with his blood?

His act awarded us righteousness.

HIS ACT provided the ability to do righteousness to us IF we walk in faithfulness. Again you are seperating the act of grace(mongergistic source) from the resulting faith to receive(synergistic response). Faith is contextual! Grace in itself DOES NOT NOR CAN SAVE ALONE! GRACE BY ITSELF SAVES NOBODY! It is by grace through our response to his Word that we are saved. His D,B,R gave him authority. We DO NOT receive forgiveness unless we are walking in the light as he did. 1 John 1:7

Your view is like saying our approach to the table to eat food is more cause for the food in our bellies than the one who made the food and prepared the table. It is self seeking to glory in self and is ultimately self-righteousness.

LOL... you are getting as bad as aquila. don't even have time to begin how poor your analogy is.

No, you are preaching self-righteousness and emphasizing our obedience.

self? Now it is "his" righteousness that I walk by. BY walking in him I receive him. If not I am not IN him to be covered by HIM.

Our obedience only allows Him to give us righteousness, ME: YES THINK ABOUT IT(1 JOHN 1:7) but you are making it into a work directly responsible for making us righteous,(ME: MONERGISTIC SOURCE AND SYNERGISTIC RESPONSE) and THAT is what the bible is totally against. Pelagianism is heresy! Sorry. Is is pharisaism.

HELLO! do you even follow what you say? At that even me. You JUST GAVE a PELAGIANISTIC PRINCIPLE and THEN CONDEMN IT. LOL

Our obedience to get in Christ is, again, no greater than walking up to the table to eat the food provided for us. The work to provide the food for us is what the preparer accomplished and he deserves the glory. You are trying to make the approach the element worthy of glory instead.

Sorry, I do not buy that pharisaical distortion.

playing both sides mike and missing both sides too. Do you even understand mongergistic source with a synegergistic response or reality? Seriously! REad what you JUST SAID and think about it. you totaly confuse things and jump all over the place.