ACN National Conference in Bryant, Arkansas

[PastorDaniel]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

In the ACN MUST one believe that toungues is the initital evidence of the Holy Ghost?

I believe tongues is the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost, as I said, I'm not the ACN spokesman, and I gave a link to the website...However, evey "one-stepper" I know believes that tongues is the "initial evidence" of the Holy Ghost.

It is my understanding that the debate is not whether speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost...the debate is whether or not you are saved before you have spoken in tongues.

Every Apostolic I know believes you should repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost....so, in my opinion, the argument becomes a moot point...thats why there was a fundamental doctrine in the UPC...it wasn't suppose to matter if you believe that salvation took place at repentance, or at baptism, or at the infilling of the HG with evidence of speaking in other tongues....as long as you believe, preach, and practice all three, Acts 2:38, you fall within the bounds of Apostolic doctrine.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

...Every Apostolic I know believes you should repent, be baptized in Jesus name, and recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost....so, in my opinion, the argument becomes a moot point...thats why there was a fundamental doctrine in the UPC...it wasn't suppose to matter if you believe that salvation took place at repentance, or at baptism, or at the infilling of the HG with evidence of speaking in other tongues....as long as you believe, preach, and practice all three, Acts 2:38, you fall within the bounds of Apostolic doctrine.

yeppers

and the UPC has strayed from that original agreement and some have been forced to leave the organization over it

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

It is my understanding that the debate is not whether speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost...the debate is whether or not you are saved before you have spoken in tongues.

Again I ask, can someone be saved without receiving the Spirit???

Scripture please.

[PastorDaniel]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Again I ask, can someone be saved without receiving the Spirit???

Scripture please.

To step into a debate of this type is like beating a dead horse on this forum...I'm Apostolic and I preach repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling...thats enough for God....thats enough for me...and honestly...I don't care if it's enough for you or not...sorry...not trying to be offensive...just stating the facts

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

To step into a debate of this type is like beating a dead horse on this forum...I'm Apostolic and I preach repentance, baptism, and Holy Ghost infilling...thats enough for God....thats enough for me...and honestly...I don't care if it's enough for you or not...sorry...not trying to be offensive...just stating the facts

Predictible response when asking for scripture on the intitial evidence doctrine.

[PastorDaniel]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Predictible response when asking for scripture on the intitial evidence doctrine.

And sadly...your insistence upon someone giving you the scriptures to something you already know is also predictable. You are not looking to gain knowledge or grow spiritually. You are looking for yet another person to add to your list of liberal, charismatic, not-apostolic-enough preachers in order to fuel you superior ego complex. I pray that the gracious God I serve will deliver you before judgement day...A scripture rings loud and clear in my head...


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And while speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Ghost. There is a sign of being filled with God's Spirit that many overlook and that is love one for another.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

You can do everything you do in the name of the Lord, you could baptize thousands, and speak in tongues all day long...but if you don't know the love of God...then you don't know Him my friend and you will sadly be cast aside on judgement day. I sincerely pray that this is not the case.

P.s. Jason, I'm not a fighter or forum debater. I do enjoy honest friendly dialogue on interesting topics...but I'v been on this forum since 2007 and I was on Faithchild before that...and this subject has been beat to death...and if I'm wrong about my stereotype of you...then I apologize...but sadly...I've been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt and it seems that most who start out this way end up being just as I described.

[James Griffin]

being filled with the Holy Ghost, and speaking with other tongues, as the Spirit enables, as an endowment of power from on high to be Christ’s witnesses.

Above is the actual quote from the ACN tenents of faith.

I am very much PCI my District Superindent and Sr Pastor is very PAJC in doctrine, but really cannot tell a difference from the pulpit.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

being filled with the Holy Ghost, and speaking with other tongues, as the Spirit enables, as an endowment of power from on high to be Christ’s witnesses.

Above is the actual quote from the ACN tenents of faith.

I am very much PCI my District Superindent and Sr Pastor is very PAJC in doctrine, but really cannot tell a difference from the pulpit.

Bump for Jason. One steppers are welcome. It has never been a point of contention.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

And sadly...your insistence upon someone giving you the scriptures to something you already know is also predictable. You are not looking to gain knowledge or grow spiritually. You are looking for yet another person to add to your list of liberal, charismatic, not-apostolic-enough preachers in order to fuel you superior ego complex. I pray that the gracious God I serve will deliver you before judgement day...A scripture rings loud and clear in my head...


Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Really Bro? You know my motives? you know the intentions of my heart? You claim I am judging you while you judge me as one who will receive the greatest condemnation, that of the hypocrites who called Jesus Lord only to be denied by Him?

I suggest you reconsider your harsh words, I'm not looking for someone "charismatic" or "not apostolic enough" at all. If anything I AM THE ONE who is accused of all those things because I reject the initial evidence doctrine and believe in justification by faith.

So while I believe in justification by faith, I am still oneness in theology and water baptism in Jesus name, and since leaving the UPC I have not found a fellowship that accepts one steppers but also baptizes in Jesus name. Hence my questions about the initial evidence doctrine. If you think I was trying to tear you down you are sadly mistaken, and you have both judged me and borne false witness against me.

I simply stated a fact that when pressed on the initial evidence doctrine (which cannot stand up to strong biblical scrutiny) that often oneness preachers often skirt the issue.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

And while speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Ghost.

Bro. this is the inconsistency I am speaking of. If your will hold to your assertion then the logical conclusion is that anyone who has not spoken in tongues in church history is lost because no one can be saved without the SPirit of God in them. Romans 8:9. At least the hard core Acts 2:38 or hell preachers are consistent. Sure they condemn millions of people to hell who probably will be in heaven, but they are consistent. If you affirm that speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost then your soteriology doesn't line up with what the Bible teaches pure and simple. And if that is the official stance of the ACN, then I see that is not a fellowship for me. That is what I was getting at, don't know why you got your feathers ruffled.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

There is a sign of being filled with God's Spirit that many overlook and that is love one for another.

Exactly Bro! There are all kinds of evidences that people have been filled with the Holy Ghost and love tops the list. Tongues is way way way down. In fact the believers who spoke in tongues the most were the ones who were the most carnal, spiritually immature, and divided christians in the New Testament, YET we try to be like them and we our movement is characterized by the EXACT same thing, a multitude of carnal and spiritually immature christians who judge their relationship with God based on how many times they've talked in tongues this week or whether or not they "got blessed" (run around in the church service) at church. They don't barely study their Bibles (for the most part, I know there are some exceptional oneness chrisitans) and are like religious junkies seeking another high.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Amen!

In fact WHY don't we use all of the criteria of 1 John to discern the characteristics of those who have been born again? That is so much more biblically solid than saying "tongues is THE initial evidence." Thats tradition, a recent one at that, and not Bible, sorry if that upsets you.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

You can do everything you do in the name of the Lord, you could baptize thousands, and speak in tongues all day long...but if you don't know the love of God...then you don't know Him my friend and you will sadly be cast aside on judgement day. I sincerely pray that this is not the case.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by PastorDaniel

P.s. Jason, I'm not a fighter or forum debater. I do enjoy honest friendly dialogue on interesting topics...but I'v been on this forum since 2007 and I was on Faithchild before that...and this subject has been beat to death...and if I'm wrong about my stereotype of you...then I apologize...but sadly...I've been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt and it seems that most who start out this way end up being just as I described.

I think you mistook me and my motives, but I won't hold it against you. No harm done, I've probably clarified myself in this post.

[PastorDaniel]

Hey Jason,

I was judging no one, but I did misunderstand...thats why I hate these forums sometimes. I honestly thought you was one of them hardcore guys looking to pick a 1 step vs 3 step fight. I do apologize. But, I don't think I'm the only one who thought you were coming across this way.

I really try to avoid this topic on here because it has been so touchy in the past. However, I do believe that you can be a 1 stepper and still believe that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of the "Baptism of the Holy Ghost." I grew up in the Church of God of Prophecy and I can say that there are millions, of non-apostolic pentecostals, out there that believe you are saved and then filled with the Holy Ghost as a subsequent act.

So, yes, I do skirt the issue. But I don't care to tell you that I am a 1 stepper and I know several of them in the ACN. Our Statement of Faith seems to make room for all, I think the key is believing in and preaching repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and infilling of the Holy Ghost. The semantics of differences don't even come up as far as I know.

I think you'd feel more than welcome...the key is to focus on what we have in common and not what we disagree on! I feel this is the basis for the ACN.

And once again, I apologize for letting my feathers get ruffled. But as I have made obvious...I'm still touchy about being made to feel that I'm not apostolic enough.

Blessings, Daniel