Crossdressing...Just how does a woman participate?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Prax posted this information last night in post #206. I'm going to excerpt that. It is saying that until 1911, the women wore loose jackets and trousers. The Qing Dynasty started in 1644, so it could have predated this, but it is not clear. Then in 1925, they switch to a "qipao", which is a long gown. So, out with the pants and in with the long, flowing gown. Deja vu, baby!

And, IMO, it isn't a moot point today as the Orthodox Jewish women still adhere to dresses only.

Do they?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Do they?

I've never read it otherwise.

Now, how to dress.

The human body is a lofty medium, a gift from G-d that allows us to use this world in our pursuit of the spiritual. Jewish Law therefore requires that we honor our bodies, that is, ourselves, in recognizing our own holiness, and to dress ourselves with the dignity we and our bodies deserve.

The following is always appropriate, even when not dressing formally.

Clothing must reach up to the collar bone in the front, and to just below the nape of the neck in the back, and it must extend below the knees. Clothing should not be tight or revealing in any way.

Women's legs should be covered with stockings, not necessarily opaque. Taupe or beige are accepted in some communities, others suggest darker colors. Flashy colors, especially of stockings, are not good. The more glaring shades of red are forbidden in any sort of clothing. Men should not wear short pants.

Long sleeves that cover the elbows are also required. This is usually appropriate for both men and women, though it is mandatory only for women. Nevertheless, at a formal occasion mens' sleeves would normally be covered by a jacket. Women should wear dresses or skirts (without slits), but not pants. The dress or skirt should reach below the knees, and stockings should cover the legs until above the knee.

http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/simchah.html

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I've never read it otherwise.

I went to the site and it says how to act and dress....at Jewish festive occasions, not necessarily all the time

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I went to the site and it says how to act and dress....at Jewish festive occasions, not necessarily all the time

I pulled that website because it was the first one I located. There are other sites that say the same thing for every day life.

And Bratti explained that she meant dresses v. pants is a "moot" point during Biblical era if we are trying to find out about cross-dressing and using Deut 22:5. I clarified that that is not what I was trying to get at. I was more looking at when the transition of robes to pants evolved for men and why they are still universally a male garment if women have always worn them too.

Orthodox Jewish women are not permitted to wear pants. Skirts and dresses are appropriate as long as they fall below the knee. It is considered inappropriate to show knees in the company of men.

Shirts must be high collared and cleavage should not be visible. Sleeves must be at least elbow length. Many Orthodox Jewish women also shy away from bright colors, as it's believed that these colors may attract extra, unnecessary attention. However, dark patterns and jeweled tones are considered appropriate for Orthodox Jewish women, and often, one can find tops and skirts with beautiful and intricate patterns.

However, when Orthodox Jewish women are exercising or when they're not in the company of men, they may choose to wear a pair of pants underneath the skirt for extra comfort and to ensure complete coverage.

Read more at Suite101: Choosing Clothing: Guidelines for Orthodox Jewish Women | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/choo...#ixzz1WbEL3Inu

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was more looking at when the transition of robes to pants evolved for men and why they are still universally a male garment if women have always worn them too.

Please support this assertion

First of all nobody says women have always worn them.

Second nobody is saying women everywhere have worn them for a long time, some time or at some point in antiquity.

The fact is neither men nor women have always worn pants everywhere all the time in history

The reason men have probably is for the same reason men girded their loins. Men needed garments that the did not trip over to fight. That was why Romans wore short skirts. Same with the Kilts. It allowed for free movement while fighting or doing other athletic activities

But even then men wearing pants universally is only a RECENT invention

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Please support this assertion

First of all nobody says women have always worn them.

Second nobody is saying women everywhere have worn them for a long time, some time or at some point in antiquity.

The fact is neither men nor women have always worn pants everywhere all the time in history

I don't know how you can say, especially, the point in bold when it's been stated a million times that women in the rice fields of China have always worn them. I'd have to drag up lots of past conversations on this subject and I sure don't have the time for it.

The reason men have probably is for the same reason men girded their loins. Men needed garments that the did not trip over to fight. That was why Romans wore short skirts. Same with the Kilts. It allowed for free movement while fighting or doing other athletic activities

I can agree with you here.

But even then men wearing pants universally is only a RECENT invention

I'm not sure I agree with you here, because the origins did start with the men, as you stated - "men girded their loins." So, in that respect, I think in ancient antiquity, it already started to be a man's garment which developed into, as you say, recently universal.

Now, I will have to drag Pel's post to me, because it is probably just as simple as he states.

Originally Posted by pelathais

The further back one goes, the more transitions one will find. Fashion comes and goes. The needs of people changes as they move around. And, the social conventions of the past may seem stifling to some so they cast them off, only to see a later generation pick them up again.

Probably just that simple. Thanks, Pel!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't know how you can say, especially, the point in bold when it's been stated a million times that women in the rice fields of China have always worn them. I'd have to drag up lots of past conversations on this subject and I sure don't have the time for it.


I can agree with you here.


I'm not sure I agree with you here, because the origins did start with the men, as you stated - "men girded their loins." So, in that respect, I think in ancient antiquity, it already started to be a man's garment which developed into, as you say, recently universal.

Now, I will have to drag Pel's post to me, because it is probably just as simple as he states.



Probably just that simple. Thanks, Pel!

Most observers of history seem to associate the development of the "bifurcated garment" (pants) as being a response to the needs of men riding horseback in colder climes. I personally don't know of any conclusive evidence for this, it just seems to be true because these are the people that brought this particular fashion into the Mediterranean world.

We have relatively little information about the "Northern Barbarians" compared to the relatively rich histories we have of the Mediterranean and Mesopotamian cultures. In the warmer Mediterranean region, men wore skirts while riding horseback - see any illustration of Roman, Greek, Egyptian and etc. cavalry uniforms. When the Romans moved north through Gaul (France) and crossed the Rhine into northern Germany, they began to wear "leggings" for warmth

In the North, men wore "pants" because they rode horses. The "cultured" and educated men (the druids, for example) wore robes and skirt-liked tunics as they dwelt in the cities and spent little time on horseback. Notice too, the clerics, missionaries and monks of the Dark Ages all wore skirts - a practice that has been carried into the modern age by Roman Catholic and other clerics. These were considered "educated" and "cultured" men and they tended to shun the rough customs and apparel of the warriors, farmers and merchant travelers.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't know how you can say, especially, the point in bold when it's been stated a million times that women in the rice fields of China have always worn them.

Perhaps you did not read what I said carefully enough

Second nobody is saying women everywhere have worn them for a long time, some time or at some point in antiquity.

I purposely made that word in RED color so you would not miss it this time

I'm not sure I agree with you here, because the origins did start with the men, as you stated - "men girded their loins."

First of all that it started exclusively with men, when I quoted a source saying both men and women wore them where they seemed to have originated, is unsubstantiated

Second, that if started with men is irrelevant. Pants started with pagans...are you going to say only pagans can wear them?

"Men girding their loins" was not pants. Pants were never at any time legislated in scriptures anywhere, ever. Pants were a practical application for men just as short skirts on roman centurions were

So, in that respect, I think in ancient antiquity, it already started to be a man's garment which developed into, as you say, recently universal.

Recently universal but as it has been proven in antiquities while men began to wear pants, because they did not always wear them, so did women in some areas