viral video of teen punishment

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Margies3

I was just thinking the same thing this morning, MissBratt. There are some people here who I have lost every shred of respect I had for in the past. Anyone who could condone this kind of behavior - and even DEFEND it - is as bad as the person who did the behavior. Makes me wonder what goes on in THEIR homes! That's scary.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, says;

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Do you consider this Old Testament practice, "Child Abuse", and do you have respect for people who did such things to their own children, like stoning them to death for being rebellious?

I find much inconsistency on this whole Thread; People are outraged for current acts of abuse, yet we ignore that God's Chosen people practiced forms of discipline in the past, that today would make our blood boil.

I believe these are important issues to address, as we take our strong stands in judgment of others, while holding a Book that may support an act of violence as "God's Will". This shows the valid conflict of the Old and New Testament, and, the possibility that certain forms of our own Religion may carry a very dark past and nature of cruelty towards innocent people and children.

BTW, I don't agree with this father's treatment of his daughter. I grew up in a very violent home, and I was abused by my drunken parents who went to Church every Sunday.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, says;

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

First question: Yes. Obesity is the number one Health Epidemic in America, and this includes children, and there is no shortage of drunkards in Society, young and old.

Second question: What difference does it make? Are you saying that stoning people is a justified response to the negligent act of being a drunkard or a glutton, regardless of age?

Also, the beginning of the verse says, "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them". Looks like obedience was the problem, not the sin.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Do you know many children who are gluttons and drunkards?

I don't think this was referring to small children but adult children.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, says;

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Do you consider this Old Testament practice, "Child Abuse", and do you have respect for people who did such things to their own children, like stoning them to death for being rebellious?

I find much inconsistency on this whole Thread; People are outraged for current acts of abuse, yet we ignore that God's Chosen people practiced forms of discipline in the past, that today would make our blood boil.

Where's the inconsistency? I never stated that I support those extreme types of punishment. I find the methods of punishment used in the OT to be quite extreme and shocking. Also, the idea that the OT parents allegedly used violent or harsh punishments with their children is not an endorsement for present day practice--unless you also plan to endorse killing your wife if she commits adultery or sacrifice a goat every time you sin.

In spite of the verse you quoted, I believe if you look at scripture as a whole and particularly at Orthodox Jewish views on parenting, you will find that compassionate, kind, long-suffering parenting is supported--if in no other way than following the example of Jehovah and the way He parented His children. Even though the laws regarding sin were extreme, we see in the OT that HE had mercy over and over, in effect, failing to fulfill the laws of man and erring on the side of His own grace.

I believe these are important issues to address, as we take our strong stands in judgment of others, while holding a Book that may support an act of violence as "God's Will". This shows the valid conflict of the Old and New Testament, and, the possibility that certain forms of our own Religion may carry a very dark past and nature of cruelty towards innocent people and children.

This really has nothing to do with this conversation. We live in a different era, and as Christians we are commanded to live like Christ. The fruits of the Spirit are clearly outlined, the qualifications for bishops are clearly outlined, I Corinthians is crystal clear about what it means to live a life of love, and none of those things include being abusive to a child. Furthermore, we should have a good reputation with people in our culture, and being unkind to your children is simply not in vogue anymore. 50-100 years ago, maybe people weren't paying attention when men beat their wives and children; now they are, and you certainly won't present Christ to the world by participating in that kind of behavior.

If you want to start a thread about the "darkness" of the OT, feel free. It does not in any way affect my opinions about this judge abusing his daughter. I haven't personally expressed any inconsistency that I'm aware of. If you would like to point it out, then I will respond accordingly.

BTW, I don't agree with this father's treatment of his daughter. I grew up in a very violent home, and I was abused by my drunken parents who went to Church every Sunday.

I agree with Pragmatist that this verse probably refers to children who are actually grown. It makes a difference because it's akin to holding a child accountable for murder vs. holding an adult accountable for murder.

What I find interesting is that modern day Christians who are living under the New Covenant and enjoying the grace of God like to revert back to the OT to support extreme, abusive, violent behaviors.