WHAT!?! No Christmas???

[Michael The Disciple]

Was Jesus born on December 25? Does Jeremiah the prophet say something about fastening a tree to a platform and decking it with silver and gold? Does YHWH say learn not the way of the heathen?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Was Jesus born on December 25? Does Jeremiah the prophet say something about fastening a tree to a platform and decking it with silver and gold? Does YHWH say learn not the way of the heathen?

Oh c'mon bro, that prophecy has nothing to do with celebrating christmas.

Jer 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

This prophecy in context was dealing with Israel's idol worship. They were literally doing what the heathens were doing, by worshipping objects.


Rom 14

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Christians who are celebrating christmas (or easter) are celebrating unto the Lord (not unto the christmas tree...lol).
And those who do not feel like celebrating, they also are doing it unto the Lord

Rom 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.



The service is now over...you may all go home and eat your ham (or turkey if you are British...LOL)

[Digging4Truth]

Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Oh c'mon bro, that prophecy has nothing to do with celebrating christmas.

1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

This prophecy in context was dealing with Israel's idol worship. They were literally doing what the heathens were doing, by worshipping objects.

I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.

But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...

The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Rom 14
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Christians who are celebrating christmas (or easter) are celebrating unto the Lord (not unto the christmas tree...lol).
And those who do not feel like celebrating, they also are doing it unto the Lord

This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.

But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Rom 14
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Did he really mean that as it is being expressed here? Nothing is unclean of itself? Adultery is not unclean of itself? Murder is not unclean of itself?

No... I am not comparing these things to christmas. I am simply making the statement that this verse is not saying what it is accused of saying. There are things that are wrong.

I believe that the apostles would have warned against combining the worship of heathen gods with the worship of the true God.

But... again... this is my take and my interpretation and to press it on others would be useless and unfruitful.

There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.

When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.



I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.

But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...

The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.

This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.

But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.

I totally understand your sentiments. I don't even concern myself with xmas...it's too much of a headache for me. It's funny I'm "defending" this...I really am apathetic to celebrations in general (even my birthday...lol)

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.

When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.

All I'm saying is if xmas is truly celebrated by giving thanks to God in the name of our Lod Jesus, I don't think that should be considered pagan worship.
I'm sure there are people who have gotten born again during an xmas service...

Ofcourse, some people are always gonna make an idol out of any holiday, whether xmas, easter, or july 4th..lol

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I totally understand your sentiments. I don't even concern myself with xmas...it's too much of a headache for me. It's funny I'm "defending" this...I really am apathetic to celebrations in general (even my birthday...lol)

I'm the same way. In "celebrating" anything what do we do? Soother our own psyche? Americans are event oriented in so many ways. We have a concert to raise money to help farmers and we all go home feeling better because we had an event.

We don't focus on anniversaries etc either (although I do take my wife out on our anniversary) because we're just not even oriented people. What I mean by that is this... it's more important that I let her know how much I love her every single day than the fact that I get her something on that one day. And then I take her out to eat on top of all of that.

Originally Posted by TGBTG

All I'm saying is if xmas is truly celebrated by giving thanks to God in the name of our Lod Jesus, I don't think that should be considered pagan worship.
I'm sure there are people who have gotten born again during an xmas service...

Ofcourse, some people are always gonna make an idol out of any holiday, whether xmas, easter, or july 4th..lol

Yes sir...

Not pressing you or anything... but if you feel so inclined to comment I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following...

How do you feel our present day use of worship methods of heathen origin differs from those times in the Bible that God found such things so offensive?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Not pressing you or anything... but if you feel so inclined to comment I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following...

How do you feel our present day use of worship methods of heathen origin differs from those times in the Bible that God found such things so offensive?

What kind of methods would you be referring to?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

What kind of methods would you be referring to?

Oh any of those that we know of today that come from pagan origins... such as...

The christmas tree
Easter eggs
The Yule log (less popular these days)


etc...

[shag]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Well I don't generally involve myself in these little discussions any more but I'll delve into this post.



I agree with you that the mentioned of taking a tree and fastening it with nails etc is probably not speaking of the pagan rituals that eventually became the christmas tree... and if it was... who could prove it. So I don't hold onto that scripture for that purpose. It's a losing battle that is based on flimsy evidence.

But I do believe that these scriptures do pertain to the christmas tree issue in this manner... Learn not the way of the heathen...
The holiday and all of it's trappings would have never become a part of christianity had this portion of scripture been obeyed. The traditions of the season are clearly of heathen origin and they should have never been learned and practiced by God's church.

This is one of the scriptures that have formed my comparitively moderate approach to my refraining from the holiday. Of course I don't believe that pagan celebrations were the intent of this scripture. I don't think the writer intended to be saying that using heathen practices designed and intended for a heathen god were okay to take and place a thin veneer or christianity over and then use as worship to the one true God.

But... again... it is a favored candy stick of those who differ and I find it useless to press the point. So I don't.



Did he really mean that as it is being expressed here? Nothing is unclean of itself? Adultery is not unclean of itself? Murder is not unclean of itself?

No... I am not comparing these things to christmas. I am simply making the statement that this verse is not saying what it is accused of saying. There are things that are wrong.

I believe that the apostles would have warned against combining the worship of heathen gods with the worship of the true God.
But... again... this is my take and my interpretation and to press it on others would be useless and unfruitful.

There are times in the history of God's people where they had picked up practices of heathen worship and they had given that worship unto the Lord. God does not have a history of viewing that worship as acceptable.

When the nation returns to God what we see happen is a good leader will come and tear down the high places etc. What were they doing with those high places? They were using ways of heathen worship and they were performing these methods of worship as unto God. I see no example where God accepted that worship as His own. The ridding of these heathen worship methods was always seen as coming back to God.

This is how I feel about it as well. Personally, I am just uncomfortable putting our Saviour's name on something that has heathen origen. Seems it would be insulting to a jealous God, IMO.....But, I understand that no doubt there is many different opinions and convictions with it all....

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1. Was Jesus born on December 25?
2. Does Jeremiah the prophet say something about fastening a tree to a platform and decking it with silver and gold?
3. Does YHWH say learn not the way of the heathen?

1. We don't know perzacly when He was born.
Some people using a time for Zehariah's ministering, figuring Elisabeth got pregnant within the next day or two, then figuring that Mary conceived 6 months later have determined that Jesus was born during the feast of Sukkot which would not have been December. Some of these same folks have His death at Passover, His burial during the days of unleavened bread, His resurrection at the feast of First Fruits, His Spirit outpoured at Pentecost and His second coming to be at the feast of Trumpets. This way we can know when He was born and when He will return

2. I don't think Jeremiah mentioned a platform.

3. Of course we are not to "learn the way of the heathen." That's why the holiest of us do not use heathen names like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday, and we do not wear birth stones or observe any type of recording or celebrating or remembering our time of birth.

[Sam]

Well, time for the annual Christmas bashing by the more spiritual and holy among us.