The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

1, one, uno instance of NT shows the people giving all and living with all things common. It is not echoed in any other NT letter. Nor is it recorded in early Church history to my knowledge. This argument is dishonest at best.

Second, you are asking the wrong question. The proper question would be "should we have expensive buildings and massive debt for church buildings to begin with". Nowhere are we commanded to go and build church buildings. You have to look centures, as in hundreds of years) past the Apostles to find the dedicated church building become common.

Massive debt? A church will seat 100 people will cost about $700K or more. That includes parking lot and everything. It is not cheap to build a church from scratch. However; good luck having consistent "gathering of the saints" in your own house. There are zoning laws about that (as we have seen as of late).

As for scripture: Acts Chapter 5 is where Ananias and Sapphira were examples of "Giving all" but they kept a portion and lied about it.

Acts Chapter 4: 32-37 were examples of New Testament Giving. Chapter 5 explains what was the result of that. Later, Paul writes about the church at Jerusalem starving because that had no means of income, because that had sold all their land (or means of income) and the churches of Asia had to send money to help them.


However, it is kinda funny, you non-tithers sound just like the OWS crowd. Take take take, but never understand what a fair share really is. Every, Non-Tither church I have seen here in my city, has shut down in these hard time. The Tithers, doors are open, handing out charity to the others.

From a business standpoint, the strategy works. The basic biblical principle of tithes and offerings works.

EDIT: I think I threw this thread off a bit.

Name it and Claim it does not work. Only the "Will of God" works. Let us pry "Thine Will be Done."

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Name it and Claim it does not work. Only the "Will of God" works. Let us pry "Thine Will be Done."

Name it and claim it is a false doctrine that claims that one can force God to give them stuff by giving stuff, like a formula. It is an unscriptural doctrine.

Tithing is a false doctrine that extorts 10% of a persons gross income by claiming that they will be cursed, killed or spend eternity in a tormenting hell for the sin of 'robbing God'. It too is an unscriptural doctrine.

The New Testament principle for financial stewardship is called giving. If a group of called ones is not able to maintain whatever they are responsible for by giving then teaching should be implemented in basic discipleship including stewardship. If those principles can not be instilled in the group than it might be better if that group does break up and each member move into a place where they can grow into spiritual maturity. By the same token if a group has to be lied to, strong armed, coerced, deceived or threatened to 'tithe' than it is probably also better if that group breaks up and seeks fellowship somewhere that will grow them to personal maturity as individuals, whether they can afford to stay together or not. In both cases there is a lack of cheerful giving, the only kind that God accepts, after all He really does not need our money.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Tithing is a false doctrine that extorts 10% of a persons gross income by claiming that they will be cursed, killed or spend eternity in a tormenting hell for the sin of 'robbing God'. It too is an unscriptural doctrine...

I can only imagine how our individual images of tithing became so disparate; but I have never felt "extorted," and would laugh in the face of anyone who made the claims that your shorthand (I presume) above attributes to "tithing." I would have to get my ducks lined up to present a good argument, here, but this seems to be a great description of what tithing is not? Without even looking, Christ Himself as much as said that extorted money is not a tithe?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I can only imagine how our individual images of tithing became so disparate; but I have never felt "extorted," and would laugh in the face of anyone who made the claims that your shorthand (I presume) above attributes to "tithing." I would have to get my ducks lined up to present a good argument, here, but this seems to be a great description of what tithing is not? Without even looking, Christ Himself as much as said that extorted money is not a tithe?

Besides the fact that there is no scripture to support New Testament tithing there is a lot wrong with it on a common sense level too.

A flat 10% will severely affect the poor in a negative way while someone with a good income will not even feel it and may have much more than they will ever need in their lifetime left over after a tenth. Yet with our inability to avoid being respecters of persons we will naturally give a place of honor to the one who gives most.

For those reasons the bible tells us to give as we are prospered. For someone wealthy that might mean giving the 90% and living on the 10%... When was the last time you saw that happen? Also the church should be supporting the poor... In a real giving situation the plate could be passed with those who can giving and those with needs taking from it... Now does that sound weird? Yes to most it will... because even when we give we are used to someone else determining HOW that money is spent.

We have in essence hired someone to help our poor, visit our sick, marry and bury us. And in the worst cases do our studying, praying and fasting. And that is paid for most often with the 'tithe'... no wonder we love it... what a bargain! If we 'paid up' in a real way how much harder would it be?

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I can only imagine how our individual images of tithing became so disparate; but I have never felt "extorted," and would laugh in the face of anyone who made the claims that your shorthand (I presume) above attributes to "tithing." I would have to get my ducks lined up to present a good argument, here, but this seems to be a great description of what tithing is not? Without even looking, Christ Himself as much as said that extorted money is not a tithe?

bbyrd009, You are fortunate to never have experienced some of what I consider malarkey when it comes to tithing.
You are blessed for never feeling "extorted", but I can tell you names and places in years gone by where people lived on food stamps, lost businesses, and even borrowed money to pay tithes because they were (for the lack of a better description) guilted - or extorted - into paying tithes. The worst thing any minister can say about NT tithing is that it is a NT commandment, not much unlike the claim by some pastors that it is God's tithe. The comment Jesus made to the Pharisees about tithing mint, anise and cummin was a rebuke to their own sense of importance over their own understanding of the minutae of the Law while overlooking the things that God considers important...
Yes, having finances is necessary in order to minister to the poor, the orphans, widows, sick and imprisoned but the tithing system became outdated when the old lamb was replaced by the Lamb of God, the laver of water replaced by the "sprinkling of the word", and the Holy of Holies replaced by the Holy Ghost. Behold ALL things are become new.

It is neither a New Testament "obligation" (although most apostolic pastors will disagree vehemently because it touches their income level), nor is it God's tithe, because every requirement of the Law was and is fulfilled in Jesus Christ alone. There are far too many examples for me to give you of people I know personally that have either had to apply for assistance, lose a business, or alter their lifestyle (which conversely increased the lifestyle of the pastor), some even borrowing money over the sense of guilt applied. The extortion and/or guilt over tithing is group-think that is promoted by lead pastors. I am glad that you have never had to experience it.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Sabby

The extortion and/or guilt over tithing is group-think that is promoted by lead pastors. I am glad that you have never had to experience it.

Wow, definitely sad. I have heard of this, and I see how it isn't really fair to expect people in different situations to react as I might.
I "tithe," but it is from joy, and I've always felt that God doesn't need, and likely doesn't want, any money in the equation.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Massive debt? A church will seat 100 people will cost about $700K or more. That includes parking lot and everything. It is not cheap to build a church from scratch. However; good luck having consistent "gathering of the saints" in your own house. There are zoning laws about that (as we have seen as of late).

I think most churches would have a problem building a church from the ground up for only 700K. And reality shows us that churches often spare few expenses when it comes to building a church.

Originally Posted by NorCal

However, it is kinda funny, you non-tithers sound just like the OWS crowd. Take take take, but never understand what a fair share really is. Every, Non-Tither church I have seen here in my city, has shut down in these hard time. The Tithers, doors are open, handing out charity to the others.

You completely misunderstand non tithers position, and seek to black label them as non-givers. I'm a "non-tither". Doesn't mean I don't give. I give all the time. Do you give to people in need? Christmas is a tough time of year for low income people, especially in this economy, did you help anyone out with a significant gift? I'm not talking about dropping a dollar in the salvation army bucket, though I believe God blesses all giving, even that. Children are starving in the world, do you care? Do you do anything to help, or just wait until your church gives? Christians are persucted all over the world do you help them out with finacnes? Do you suppport missions (not just your church-do you?) Please don't feel obligated to answer those questions, I don't plan to either. The point is that non-tithers are not necessarily non-givers. And if they are non tithers only or primarily so they can keep more of their money, then God already knows their motives, nd we are warned in Ephesians that greedy/covetous person can inherit the Kingdom of God. Greed has nothing to do with %. A tither can be greedy. They can (and many do) give out of fear, not faith. Tithing turns into legalism and works0righteousness. It destroys 1 Peter 1:18-19 and does in effect say you are redeemed by corruptible things like silver and gold.

Originally Posted by NorCal

From a business standpoint, the strategy works.

Now that is solid reasoning. Hard to argue with that. The ends justifies the means. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Well, case closed.

Originally Posted by NorCal

The basic biblical principle of tithes and offerings works.

And people say the same thing about uncut hair. People say the same thing about wearing a bulb of garlic around their neck warding off evil spirits. Furthermore tithing DOESN'T always work, in fact it rarely works the way it is taught. is not it taught that the tither ought to have a blessing that "you cannot contain"? Is it not suppossed to be pressed down-shaken together and running over? Do you not plant one seed and get an abundant harvest from that one seed? Isn't the "LAW" of sowing and reaping presented that the harvest ALWAYS produces more than what was planted? Then why do many tithers struggle? Why do they have to watch their buget when they buy groceries? if they tithe shouldn't they be so blessed that even something so basic as filling the pantry with groceries should be done without a second thought? Why did tithers in a Texas aposotlic church live without elictricity for at least a couple of months because they choose to pay their tithes instead? Why did an employee of mine who paid tithes faithfully (when he couldn't really afford to) lose his house and end up living in someones backyard in an old unused travel trailer with a family, only to later lose his family becuase his wife got fed up with living like that? Do those people all say it works? You know what, most of them do, because they are scared to death of hell. But the thing is God didn't break his word, men took scriptures out of context, and the end result is that instead of building up peoples faith, many (not all) have had their faith shaken, and certainly some have abandoned it alltogether. The world thinks the church is only out for their money, and when they here such things as have been mentioned on this thread as a first time visitor to AN APOSTOLIC CHURCH (come on, were not talking about Creflo Dollar here) who could blame them?